Harder Content = Better?

[Tomana]

Why is it that there are no new players at all in this game?

Because the MMO genre as a whole is saturated since ~2009. It no longer interests the younger players, which probably find it too time-consuming and turn to other alternatives (console games, mobile games, shooters etc...)

Every time I read this kind of posts, I can only laugh. Wasn't there some report that said that the average age of players in WoW is going down instead of up. Will try to find it...

Please do. Meanwhile, a lot of players who spent more time in game while they were younger and who still want to play WoW.

[RickJamesLich]

People saying the experience will be more "rewarding" or "satisfying" for people when they complete more difficult content do not understand that not everyone, and most likely a large majority of players, do not play WoW for a "challenge."

They will not enjoy more difficulty because they don't play WoW, in general, to overcome difficulty. They play it to relax, to socialize, to admire the pixels, to perform meditative tasks like herbing for hours, to game the AH, to collect pets/achievements/mounts, and so on. Perhaps they have difficult day jobs and want to zzzz in the game, or perhaps difficult encounters just aren't their thing.

LFR was a great addition to the game because it lets people have some of the raiding experience in a very accessible, casual way. It's not that different from Baradin Hold in terms of difficulty (I would say almost identical), and BH dropped normal mode gear, and there was not any particular whining about the loot pinata.

It's easy, it's fun for some people (many people), it's VERY popular, and it's not going away. It's not going to get harder either.

If it's no fun because of the lack of challenge, then by all means don't participate. If you participate anyway because you want the gear, then can you please be polite and play your role well.

The thing for me is, if people are playing just for socializing, having a more challenging game does not present them from doing that... I think most would agree the game is A LOT less social than it was in vanilla as well. To be honest, I think the whole thing of presenting challenges that require you to team up with other people made the game fun not only for the challenge, but also for the socializing.... you had buddies you would regularly do dungeons with, groups of people you'd pvp with, you knew the top pvp players of the opposite faction and they knew you... that kinda stuff.

As for LFR, it's hard for me to understand how people can enjoy that... when the bosses are set up so that you can always beat them, but it takes 10 minutes to do it.... I guess I just find that really boring to be honest. I get it that some guys weren't able to raid or get epics back in the day, but I think there are probably better ways of helping out these guys besides just this.

[Otimus]

The thing for me is, if people are playing just for socializing, having a more challenging game does not present them from doing that... I think most would agree the game is A LOT less social than it was in vanilla as well. To be honest, I think the whole thing of presenting challenges that require you to team up with other people made the game fun not only for the challenge, but also for the socializing.... you had buddies you would regularly do dungeons with, groups of people you'd pvp with, you knew the top pvp players of the opposite faction and they knew you... that kinda stuff.

As for LFR, it's hard for me to understand how people can enjoy that... when the bosses are set up so that you can always beat them, but it takes 10 minutes to do it.... I guess I just find that really boring to be honest. I get it that some guys weren't able to raid or get epics back in the day, but I think there are probably better ways of helping out these guys besides just this.

The core problem is, is when you can't queue up for stuff, not many people do it. Either through lack of skill, social stigma, or just flat out not wanting to go through that sort of effort.

There's always talk of socializing and community in the old days. But it was pretty much relegated to a very select few, and certainly wasn't some wide thing.

LFD, LFR and such were made for a reason, and it wasn't simply convenience. People just flat out won't do content if it's not given to them to do in a stress-free way. It's not just WoW, that's how pretty much every online game is.

[HardCoder]

As for LFR, it's hard for me to understand how people can enjoy that... when the bosses are set up so that you can always beat them, but it takes 10 minutes to do it.... I guess I just find that really boring to be honest. I get it that some guys weren't able to raid or get epics back in the day, but I think there are probably better ways of helping out these guys besides just this.

I enjoy it because it lets me practice and experiment whenever I want to. I actually run MSV LFR repeatedly on my priest for fun and a little valor.

Maybe it's just my luck but it does seem that LFR groups have become a little more polite and occasionally even friendly since Cataclysm.

[Algearond]

I would prefer harder content, but in the more available form of LFR and 5 mans (I like LFR because I can raid on my schedule, not for the easiness of it). How to reconcile that with complete strangers grouping? Beats the hell out of me.

---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 09:23 PM ----------

I enjoy it because it lets me practice and experiment whenever I want to. I actually run MSV LFR repeatedly on my priest for fun and a little valor.

Maybe it's just my luck but it does seem that LFR groups have become a little more polite and occasionally even friendly since Cataclysm.

Very much so, my wife and I hate the current state of LFD, but I can't think of a single bad group in LFR since MoP launched, quite pleased with it actually.

[yjmark]

The thing for me is, if people are playing just for socializing, having a more challenging game does not present them from doing that... I think most would agree the game is A LOT less social than it was in vanilla as well. To be honest, I think the whole thing of presenting challenges that require you to team up with other people made the game fun not only for the challenge, but also for the socializing.... you had buddies you would regularly do dungeons with, groups of people you'd pvp with, you knew the top pvp players of the opposite faction and they knew you... that kinda stuff.

Vanilla was not more social because it was challenging. It was more social because it was new. When people are discovering together, they are more social. As time went on, it became less and less social. Around mid-TBC, a lot of people who were leveling did not want to socialize at all because they were leveling alts and wanted to get to max level ASAP. The amount of complaints of how long it took to level was astounding. As the playerbase changed, Blizz adapted the game accordingly. Not the other way around.

New dungeons and raids are not really "new". They are the same thing they always were, just with different mechanics. So after someone has run tons of dungeons, and done tons of raids, it looses its luster.

[hyphnos]

If they started catering to you, but moved away to cater to a larger demographic, of course you're going to feel that way. It doesn't mean they're doing it wrong.

---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 08:48 PM ----------



I'm finding four characters is about the max I can gear up through LFR/VP, if I want to VP cap them each week, and even then it is time consuming. This seems alt-friendly enough to me.

It would be fewer if I also wanted to do PvP. But casual PvP is in a bad state right now.

Just curious, what's your estimated time for running LFR/capping valor on 4 toons. To say it is "time consuming" is an extreme understatement.

[RickJamesLich]

Vanilla was not more social because it was challenging. It was more social because it was new. When people are discovering together, they are more social. As time went on, it became less and less social. Around mid-TBC, a lot of people who were leveling did not want to socialize at all because they were leveling alts and wanted to get to max level ASAP. The amount of complaints of how long it took to level was astounding. As the playerbase changed, Blizz adapted the game accordingly. Not the other way around.

New dungeons and raids are not really "new". They are the same thing they always were, just with different mechanics. So after someone has run tons of dungeons, and done tons of raids, it looses its luster.

Definitely disagree, every x-pac the game is completely changed, but that doesn't increase the social aspect. IMO, the social aspect came because you *had* to team up with people from time to time, for raids, dungeons, if you were serious about PvP u generally made buddies, even while questing.... which by the way, I think is much more fun then the current model where you can solo everything and never come close to dying. Granted, if you played your class poorly, or were rude, you weren't going to get in many groups for anything... as time goes along, those guys complained enough so blizz forces people to play with them through dungeon queues, which I think makes a much less fun experience. How many memorable LFR runs have you had versus how many memorable regular raids have you had?

As for my comment about LFR, to me it kinda reminds me of when you're a kid and you play basketball with your dad, and you win, and you think it's awesome... then you find out he let you win lol, it's not as big of a deal... the whole thing with blizz pretty much setting it up so you almost always win.... just ends up making it dull.

[HardCoder]

How many memorable LFR runs have you had versus how many memorable regular raids have you had?

Once again, LFR isn't intended for people who do regular raiding, so ... what is the point of this question?

As for my comment about LFR, to me it kinda reminds me of when you're a kid and you play basketball with your dad, and you win, and you think it's awesome... then you find out he let you win lol, it's not as big of a deal... the whole thing with blizz pretty much setting it up so you almost always win.... just ends up making it dull.

If you're disappointed that your dad let you win when he played ball with you, then YOU ARE THE PERSON WITH ISSUES, not the rest of us. Normal people just remember that their dad played ball with them, and treasure that memory.

[Lethey Alexandros]

I honestly do not think that the content has gotten easyer so much as we do not have to learn fights. Anyone can go out to X,Y,Z site and look up wrtitten stratagies, watch how to videos, optomize your gear, and run simulations on your character. All of these things did not exist in wows early days which I think made it harder VS today. Its the difference between Navigation by star charts vs GPS units

[Thatwsntmilk]

Just curious, what's your estimated time for running LFR/capping valor on 4 toons. To say it is "time consuming" is an extreme understatement.

The question is if they should really design the game to enable everyone to have 11 characters in full top tier gear.
I never really got the point of that new system but it seems that the new crowd screaming for instant gratification enjoys that.

[fangless]

I honestly do not think that the content has gotten easyer so much as we do not have to learn fights. Anyone can go out to X,Y,Z site and look up wrtitten stratagies, watch how to videos, optomize your gear, and run simulations on your character. All of these things did not exist in wows early days which I think made it harder VS today. Its the difference between Navigation by star charts vs GPS units

Define early days? Cause there was a lot of information passed around even in Vanilla.

[HardCoder]

The question is if they should really design the game to enable everyone to have 11 characters in full top tier gear.
I never really got the point of that new system but it seems that the new crowd screaming for instant gratification enjoys that.

God, Dude.

Where are these posts screaming for "instant gratification"? The only ones I see are sarcastic posts from people like you.

No one ever has had 11 toons in full current heroic tier. Some world class no-life grinder has probably had one of every class in a 4-pc at the end of an expansion but I've never personally heard of it. It's hard to get ONE toon in 4pc in LFR. By "hard" I mean "easy if RNG likes you and impossible otherwise."

Have you heard, hyperbole is the worst thing ever in the entire history of the world?

[Osmeric]

Just curious, what's your estimated time for running LFR/capping valor on 4 toons. To say it is "time consuming" is an extreme understatement.

I'm sure if I added it up, it would be a disturbing number. So I'm not going to do that.

The trick is to get one character to 1000 VP as early in the week as possible, so the others get the 50% boost.

[fangless]

God, Dude.

Where are these posts screaming for "instant gratification"?

Play the game since launch, and they are all over the place.

[HardCoder]

I'm sure if I added it up, it would be a disturbing number. So I'm not going to do that.

The trick is to get one character to 1000 VP as early in the week as possible, so the others get the 50% boost.

Yeah, I can't do that ... I pretty much can't stand dailies. Spamming scenarios/LFR/LFD at the 50% off "2nd and later" rate would probably kill me too. By the time I cap one toon it's pretty late in the week.

I really don't see any benefit to the change away from the 7/week system.

---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 02:26 PM ----------

Play the game since launch, and they are all over the place.

Actually, they aren't.

People are complaining that X, Y, Z take longer than they would like, but the "mail my epics to me" language is coming from other people.

[Osmeric]

Yeah, I can't do that ... I pretty much can't stand dailies. Spamming scenarios/LFR/LFD at the 50% off "2nd and later" rate would probably kill me too. By the time I cap one toon it's pretty late in the week.

The leader character gets to 1000 VP by thursday (450 VP from LFR, 360 VP from scenario + heroic 5 man done while waiting in LFR queue, plus 190 VP from dailies and extra scenarios/heroics). Running an LFR again just for 45 VP isn't worthwhile.

For the others: 675 from LFR and 360 from two days of heroic/scenarios maxes it out. Sometimes I will skip some of the LFR instances. I don't need to run dailies on anything but perhaps that leader character, especially at this point when I'm not worrying about lesser charms.

[Otimus]

Definitely disagree, every x-pac the game is completely changed, but that doesn't increase the social aspect. IMO, the social aspect came because you *had* to team up with people from time to time, for raids, dungeons, if you were serious about PvP u generally made buddies, even while questing.... which by the way, I think is much more fun then the current model where you can solo everything and never come close to dying. Granted, if you played your class poorly, or were rude, you weren't going to get in many groups for anything... as time goes along, those guys complained enough so blizz forces people to play with them through dungeon queues, which I think makes a much less fun experience. How many memorable LFR runs have you had versus how many memorable regular raids have you had?

As for my comment about LFR, to me it kinda reminds me of when you're a kid and you play basketball with your dad, and you win, and you think it's awesome... then you find out he let you win lol, it's not as big of a deal... the whole thing with blizz pretty much setting it up so you almost always win.... just ends up making it dull.

1) that content didn't have a large amount of people doing them until they could be queued for. That's a problem, financially, because content needs to have a justification. The fact that so many aspects of WoW lasted as long as they did without those sort of methods is kind of bizarre.

2) LFR is not that. LFR is playing on easy. Lots of games have easy settings. Stop trying to dress things up to get some misguided point across that makes zero sense in the landscape of gaming.

[Deleted]

I do think that harder content is better yes.

[Strlder]

In the couple of threads I ever read on these forums there are always the same people who somehow have inside knowledge of what every WoW player does and dismiss everyone else's opinion as "you are crazy brah, nobody raids, get real."

It's like me saying that 80% of people on my friend's list raid or raided until they got over WoW so only 20% of people who play WoW ever use LFR as a means of raiding and not to get some VP or shard some gear.

And I also like how the pro-dumbing down crowd probably spend more time on WoW than I do (tip: if you cap VP even on 1 toon you do) and yet cannot commit to raiding real content.