Harder Content = Better?

[Redmage]

I think the key is to have varying degrees of content.

But yes, there needs to be hard content.

[killidan]

Before I begin, this video; --SNIP--, intrigued me very so.

Now, the video is quite long but it goes like this; In vanilla Mike goes on to explain how that when Naxxramas FIRST came out, only 1% of the population saw it before BC hit, granted there was 7-8 million subs around then, that's roughly 70,000+ people seeing it. Mike says that this was NOT a bad thing, it instilled a great sense of a "journey" into the game.

It WAS a great journey. I did Naxx at the end of BC, but it felt great. It felt better than doing easy shit Naxx in WotLK or clearing normal modes in one or two weeks.

[judgementofantonidas]

I keep seeing things like this and I really have to wonder who thinks like that. I certainly didn't, and I still don't. That guy camped out on the fountain or bridge hoping that people will see their new shiny ... I may think a particular model or transmog has a cool look, but if I'm thinking anything about the guy it is closer to: "poor chump, camped out on a bridge and hoping people notice, that's pretty sad."

I don't think that the limited number of kiddies that play lookatme are the necessarily what was being refered to. Don't tell me, assuming you are a comptetant player, that when you are capping valor with a few heroics and somoene whispers you "great gear dude", that you do not have at least a moment of pride.

[killidan]

Quite simply, no. Harder content is not better for the community or the game. Cataclysm made this mistake, and Blizzard course corrected with Mists. Now, I think that harder content should always be an option for those willing to seek it out. Heroic raiding and challenge mode dungeons are the manifestation of this right now, and I think most people are fairly happy with those.

I don't think that players are wrong for wanting to kill the boss and see how the story ends without having to watch it on Youtube.

With that logic, Vanilla and BC "made that mistake", yet WoW became a very successful game back then. Cata had problems far greater than hard content.

[krunksmash]

hard content YES!! it gives the player something to over come overtuned or retardedly tight enrage timers NO. the goal is to make the player think. not piss the player off cause only elietist can beat the encounter.

[killidan]

For me, no. I always found it stupid that they made a big fuzz around Illidan, made a badass intro video to the expansion and then for most people the only place they actually saw him in game for a second was when they finished the Netherdrake dailies.
I never got the appeal of this "There is a boss out there that i will never see, how cool is that..." thing. When i play a computer game i want to see the big things.

But in the end it is a question like "Metal or Rap ?", different people have different opinions.

You will see that boss when you are prepared. Maybe in the next expansion... But now, you are not prepared. lol

[judgementofantonidas]

hard content YES!! it gives the player something to over come overtuned or retardedly tight enrage timers NO. the goal is to make the player think. not piss the player off cause only elietist can beat the encounter.

Who is the elitist? The player that can beat the engrage timer or just the player who can beat the engrage timer quicker than you?

[TheFNK]

hard content YES!! it gives the player something to over come overtuned or retardedly tight enrage timers NO. the goal is to make the player think. not piss the player off cause only elietist can beat the encounter.

I see this elitist word thrown around a lot.

Since when did it become a mortal sin to be good at the game?

[judgementofantonidas]

I see this elitist word thrown around a lot.

Since when did it become a mortal sin to be good at the game?

point I was trying to illustrate. at what level is someone automatically an elitist?

[AyuZ]

Depth, complexity, and how how challenging etc etc.

Okay. I don't need to touch base on WoW's depth or complexity, but the challenging section in the first video strung a note. Blizz IS in fact taking the easy way out, they are subsequently watering the game down to lure more players in. What they should do is make the leveling experience a fun, enjoyable ride, where subliminally you are teaching fundamental mechanics that will be encountered at the end game. I think for the most part Blizz DID do this right. But once comes end game, its a breeze. Not only is leveling actually a little TOO easy (I've seen countless threads explaining how solo leveling is kind of a joke, you just flick away mobs with your finger as they fall face first dead. Over and over and over and over to 90). I mean why don't you test what the player learns, why don't they test the cerebral part of the player.

This game is moving further and further away from thinking outside the box, to mindless playing. You mindlessly breeze through heroics that use shoddy mechanics, and don't get me started with LFR, it's just an abomination of what WoW was meant to be. WoW has depth, a lot of it, it isn't too complex, but, it's set for you, it's almost too linear how progression works.

You ding 90 -> Heroics -> LFR -> Normal raids, with ilvl requirements which also isn't a good idea. Why don't you ding 90, induct a plethora of ways to get gear, but you have to WORK to get these. You have to think of the best way to obtain these, make players set their own goals, not have laid out goals in front of them. You can't just do it blindfolded like it's current state. Everyone says "I'd rather do content then a wipe fest." that's GOOD, you want to work hard, think harder to AVOID wiping, you have an incentive to be a better player this way! And get more out of the game than you actually think!

[Deja Thoris]

Harder content that not everyone has the skill in order to reach let alone defeat is a good thing and should serve as an incentive to players who are incapable to improve.

Incentivise people incapable of improving? what the fuck.

[judgementofantonidas]

Incentivise people incapable of improving? what the fuck.

edited syntax to more properly express my statement in a more understandable format.

[Deleted]

Incentivise people incapable of improving? what the fuck.

Read what you're quoting.

Incapable TO improve. That means they're incapable of beating the encounter without improving themselves, thus an incentive is given for them to improve, allowing them to kill it.

[AyuZ]

I think a good step would be for Blizz to just gut out LFR, it's very, very, very, very slim chance of that ever happening, but it would definitely be a step in the right direction.

That would right then make a gap between the casual, and the more serious player. If you want to see content, you have to commit to the game, and actually try to defeat the content. I'm really just sick of this LFR nonsense, it really is the manifestation of greed for money and disregarding the fundamental aspects of World of Warcraft and it's history.

Edit -

Don't you think it's kind of disrespecting the hard core part of their subscription base? Sure it's a minority, but a good developer will not ignore that minority. I mean sure they have their higher ilvl gear, special mounts, bonus boss, or titles, but someone who did not put forth an ounce of effort saw and experienced the same content that the hardcore party painfully wiped over, and over again to triumph.

You don't see people working part time and getting a nice, big, house, and a nice car do you? They have to work hard for a majority of their life, have a good job, get the education to get that job, do well in high to get that good education, etc etc. You see what analogy I am implying I hope.

[judgementofantonidas]

I think a good step would be for Blizz to just gut out LFR, it's very, very, very, very slim chance of that ever happening, but it would definitely be a step in the right direction.

That would right then make a gap between the casual, and the more serious player. If you want to see content, you have to commit to the game, and actually try to defeat the content. I'm really just sick of this LFR nonsense, it really is the manifestation of greed for money and disregarding the fundamental aspects of World of Warcraft and it's history.

very much agree with you. LFR would have to change drasticaly for it to be of any benefit other than to feed the entitlement of players unwilling to put any kind of effort into the game.

[ZakAtack]

In my opinion (keyword: opinion), easier content is good for the game financially and good for the individual player. However, I believe it is bad for the health of the community. The easier content is, the less you have to rely on others and improve your own performance. This allows you to accomplish more with your character, giving you more satisfaction in the short term and you are probably more likely to resubscribe. But you're less likely to form friendships and bonds with the community (an especially prominent problem with the increasing abundance of cross-realm features), and are less tied to the community as a whole. And when something does slow down in group content, you're a bit more likely to lash out and be negative about it (e.g., NOOB Y R U MAKIN MY LFR TAEK SOO LONG STUP BEIN DUM). You're less tied to the community, more easily convinced to stop paying $15/mth for what is becoming more and more a single player MMO.

Just my two cents.

[Prokne]

I've watched that video before, when it was FIRST mentioned, and the 'first kill' dates that you and that damned video mention was not because of boss difficulty, but a combination of bad itemization, luck, and people back then were not nearly as devoted into learning WoW and its classes' mechanics as they are today. I also am even willing to say that, if we got the strong 'world first' guilds of today, and put them in a BC server, with BC classes and mechanics, they'd down those bosses just as fast as they kill today's bosses.

WHY do you think Blizzard makes raid bosses with more and more complicated strategies? Because, gear notwithstanding, the top players evolved and started learning techniques faster. That video is misinformation at its best. I really wish people would stop confusing 'nostalgic stuff' with 'better stuff'. ><

Another thing about the time before first kill in Vanilla and TBC is that Blizzard didnt release raid content like they do now. At the start of TBC all the raids up to TK were open as long as you were attuned. Then BT was released about the same week of the first Kaelthas kill. There wasnt 3+ months of farming the last raid so no one was geared enough to go into BT. This would basically be like if in Cata Firelands was released with the expansion and it took 3 months to get a world first H Rag kill. At the same time DS is released but everyone is in mostly normal FL gear. So you would have to farm H FL and DS for several weeks to be able to have good attempts on H DS bosses.

Vanilla had about the same gear dependent progression because of the large raids and sparse gear drops(2 per boss in a 40man raid). So the time it took for a first kill was lengthened due to having to farm gear for several weeks whereas now, you start off with a gear level capable of clearing the raid in the first week because you farmed it for 4 months between patches.

[AyuZ]

In my opinion (keyword: opinion), easier content is good for the game financially and good for the individual player. However, I believe it is bad for the health of the community. The easier content is, the less you have to rely on others and improve your own performance. This allows you to accomplish more with your character, giving you more satisfaction in the short term and you are probably more likely to resubscribe. But you're less likely to form friendships and bonds with the community (an especially prominent problem with the increasing abundance of cross-realm features), and are less tied to the community as a whole. And when something does slow down in group content, you're a bit more likely to lash out and be negative about it (e.g., NOOB Y R U MAKIN MY LFR TAEK SOO LONG STUP BEIN DUM). You're less tied to the community, more easily convinced to stop paying $15/mth for what is becoming more and more a single player MMO.

Just my two cents.

The way blizz is going, the community will be used to hand fed content and it will be an inescapable pit fall. It would be a bad way for WoW to end when that time comes. Just think about it, the pinnacle, end boss of the entire franchise being defeated in an LFR version where 25 people press 1 over and over again.

[Firebert]

I think a good step would be for Blizz to just gut out LFR, it's very, very, very, very slim chance of that ever happening, but it would definitely be a step in the right direction.

That would right then make a gap between the casual, and the more serious player. If you want to see content, you have to commit to the game, and actually try to defeat the content. I'm really just sick of this LFR nonsense, it really is the manifestation of greed for money and disregarding the fundamental aspects of World of Warcraft and it's history.

I think a good step would be for Blizz to allow players that have completed LFR to queue up for Normal Mode. There's a very slim chance of that ever happening, but it would definitely be a step in the right direction.

That would then close the gap between the raiders and the casuals. If you want to see the content, LFR's there for you, but if the Normal raiders can jump up to Heroic mode, LFR raiders should be able to jump up to Normal mode as their Heroic version.

I'm sick of the poo-pooing of LFR, especially as it brought players back in to raiding (and as a result makes raid content more cost-effective for Blizzard, hence we get more high-quality raids like Ulduar and TotC).

[judgementofantonidas]

In my opinion (keyword: opinion), easier content is good for the game financially and good for the individual player. However, I believe it is bad for the health of the community. The easier content is, the less you have to rely on others and improve your own performance. This allows you to accomplish more with your character, giving you more satisfaction in the short term and you are probably more likely to resubscribe. But you're less likely to form friendships and bonds with the community (an especially prominent problem with the increasing abundance of cross-realm features), and are less tied to the community as a whole. And when something does slow down in group content, you're a bit more likely to lash out and be negative about it (e.g., NOOB Y R U MAKIN MY LFR TAEK SOO LONG STUP BEIN DUM). You're less tied to the community, more easily convinced to stop paying $15/mth for what is becoming more and more a single player MMO.

Just my two cents.

Took my alt DK through first part of HOF raid finder yesterday. On Garalon ended up being myself and the other tank with a couple of healers left burning down the last two legs and killing him. There was a great uproar of "GJ!" to which I just couldn't help from responding "not really, why are you people even here?".

---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 11:20 PM ----------

I think a good step would be for Blizz to allow players that have completed LFR to queue up for Normal Mode. There's a very slim chance of that ever happening, but it would definitely be a step in the right direction.

That would then close the gap between the raiders and the casuals. If you want to see the content, LFR's there for you, but if the Normal raiders can jump up to Heroic mode, LFR raiders should be able to jump up to Normal mode as their Heroic version.

I'm sick of the poo-pooing of LFR, especially as it brought players back in to raiding (and as a result makes raid content more cost-effective for Blizzard, hence we get more high-quality raids like Ulduar and TotC).

Let me get this right. You are suggesting RANDOM REGULAR RAIDING? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND???