[Mage] 5.2 PTR Discussion (based on Feb 19 notes)

[Rinoa]

Indeed, with proper Alter Time usage Mage burst goes from being good to being great. The only thing that can be a littlebit frustrating is not getting 2 AM procs before hitting 6 stacks so that you have to fish for procs at 6 stacks while watching trinket procs fade away. When it lines up it's very nice though. Hit 300k+ burst on single target quite a few times with stars have aligned in our wee 10 man. ^^"

[huth]

You guys got problems... At least mage MI isn't a dps loss to use. Symbiosis MI hits for the incredible amount of 60 apiece.

[zomgDPS]

Indeed, with proper Alter Time usage Mage burst goes from being good to being great. The only thing that can be a littlebit frustrating is not getting 2 AM procs before hitting 6 stacks so that you have to fish for procs at 6 stacks while watching trinket procs fade away. "

This is going to be a bigger problem now with 4 stacks. I can't remember where, but I think I posted some math near the beginning of the PTR that looked at the actual probability loss of 2 AMs due to the 4 stack change, I'll try to dig it up.

That being said "fishing" for procs with ABs is not viable anymore really. The only real strategy I've had to deal with the problem though is actually cycling lower stacks (e.g. ABx2 ABrs) quickly in order to get 2 AMs, then building up to max stack and popping CDs.
It also helps if you control the warps (e.g. let the Arcane mage in your raid control the TW/lusts).


On the topic of Mirror Images, for those of you who remember back in WoTLk beta when the spell was introduced; when deployed, the mage would randomly switch positions with one of the images and would do so multiple times while they were out.

I remember playing with it in the few beta builds before this behavior was taken out and I remember it being really cool (especially in PvP, nothing better than popping images then having the warrior charge you but then switching places with one of the images and watching the warrior beat on the wrong you!).
That behavior was removed due to PvE QQ (of all things) since PvE mages found it 'disorienting' when the swap happened, as well as the potential loss of a spell (it could swap you mid cast).

If we really did want to improve images, I think reintroducing the ability to swap (but making it controlled) would be quite epic. Give the MI spell another ability that is attached to it (call it MI: Swap), and allow the mage to swap positions with one of the Images. I can easily see something like this becoming a talent.


That being said, MIs really aren't a big issue in general. They serve their purpose for threat control/distraction quite well imho.

[Polarthief]

You guys got problems... At least mage MI isn't a dps loss to use. Symbiosis MI hits for the incredible amount of 60 apiece.

Symbiosis also lets you choose from 10 new abilities PER SPECC.

Don't complain about Symbiosis. If you don't like MI, use a different one.

PS: This is a MAGE forum. Talking about Druid MI has no place here.

[Rinoa]

You guys got problems... At least mage MI isn't a dps loss to use. Symbiosis MI hits for the incredible amount of 60 apiece.

To be fair though, symbiosised (is that a word?) spells aren't really supposed to be DPS increases.

[obc]

That being said, MIs really aren't a big issue in general. They serve their purpose for threat control/distraction quite well imho.

but are they worth a 3min CD?

and why not use them as our lvl 90 talent boost? (MI:Swap could be one of the spells which also gives you a random sec stat buff) but well this is getting very much Off-topic

I really like the new (or rather old) 4 stack system. Its a QoL change and even if yields less dmg by not being able to fish AMs as good as before, the numbers could still be tuned to make it work.

i think this ptr cycle the changes to mages have been too erratic. the numbers go up and down all the time and spells are changed again and again and even tossed away. i have no clue anymore on what blizz wants us to be or how they want me to play. so i should stand and nuke but why give fire scorch then? Fire gets the best of both worlds, scorch and talents while being very mobile anyway o.O.

[Polarthief]

Fire gets the best of both worlds, scorch and talents while being very mobile anyway o.O.

How do you see Fire as mobile without Scorch? Please tell me you're joking.

ARCANE is more mobile than Fire w/o Scorch. They can at least use ABarr while we'd only have Ice Lance and IB (and if you actually get both a HU and turn it into a HS from two IBs, you're moving for way too long).

Not to mention, Fire PvP without Scorch effectively nullifies any and all chances of playing the specc.

[zomgDPS]

but are they worth a 3min CD?

If you are asking me if I think the spell is worth its spot on my action bars, then yes, most definitely.

If you are asking me if the spell makes a good DPS cooldown, then no. But then again, I doesn't need to be a DPS cooldown for it to be 'worth it'.

Blink does no DPS, it is most definitely 'worth it'.
People who think MIs are a DPS spell are.. well.. looking at it wrong.

MI pwns pretty hard. I'll leave it at that.

[LocNess]

How do you see Fire as mobile without Scorch? Please tell me you're joking.

ARCANE is more mobile than Fire w/o Scorch. They can at least use ABarr while we'd only have Ice Lance and IB (and if you actually get both a HU and turn it into a HS from two IBs, you're moving for way too long).

Not to mention, Fire PvP without Scorch effectively nullifies any and all chances of playing the specc.

Actually going to disagree. Fire is more mobile due to the amount of DoTs it has. Ignite/Pyro rolling (plus even Combustion) and your bomb is a crap ton of damage compared to Arcane Explosion/Barrage over the course of a movement heavy time period.

---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 06:44 PM ----------

If you are asking me if I think the spell is worth its spot on my action bars, then yes, most definitely.

If you are asking me if the spell makes a good DPS cooldown, then no. But then again, I doesn't need to be a DPS cooldown for it to be 'worth it'.

Blink does no DPS, it is most definitely 'worth it'.
People who think MIs are a DPS spell are.. well.. looking at it wrong.

MI pwns pretty hard. I'll leave it at that.

Blink is used for movement, not DPS, and through that it is actually technically one of our highest DPS allowing spells if you want to call it that.

MI does not "pwn hard". It hits like kittens. If the main point of a spell is to reduce aggro during a time period where aggro is almost never an issue (plus we have invisibility for a reason). Plus here is the main definition of the spell:

"Creates 3 copies of the caster nearby, which cast spells and attack the Mage's enemies. Lasts 30 sec."

There is nothing stating that aggro reduction is a part of it, Blizzard words in a way that it is expected to do damage, which for a 3min CD it does nothing.

[Polarthief]

Actually going to disagree. Fire is more mobile due to the amount of DoTs it has. Ignite/Pyro rolling (plus even Combustion) and your bomb is a crap ton of damage compared to Arcane Explosion/Barrage over the course of a movement heavy time period

K. Good luck casting a Pyroblast or proccing Ignite while being forced to move and w/o Scorch. I'm sure your Bomb + 2 IBs (after 16s) will do plenty of damage.

I was referring to a time when you need to constantly move, not "oh, let's get a HU+HS procc and then start moving".

PS: Mage Bomb is a talent. It's not specc-specific so I wasn't using it in my comparison.

[LocNess]

K. Good luck casting a Pyroblast or proccing Ignite while being forced to move and w/o Scorch. I'm sure your Bomb + 2 IBs (after 16s) will do plenty of damage.

I was referring to a time when you need to constantly move, not "oh, let's get a HU+HS procc and then start moving".

PS: Mage Bomb is a talent. It's not specc-specific so I wasn't using it in my comparison.

Using Heroic Double Attenuation as an example, if a Fire Mage doesn't have Scorch they will have PoM, allowing that extra Pyro. They also have inferno blast, which can trigger instant cast crits. Your Arcane Barrage will clear your stacks, and then afterwards hit for shit. During Double Attenuation you can still get a cast off every now and then, but Fire has a lot higher potential with criticals than does Arcane, as even 1-charge AB hits like....kittens. Your Arcane Barrage has one hard hit, then nothing after. Fire has constant ticking damage that is maintainable.

[Rinoa]

Actually going to disagree. Fire is more mobile due to the amount of DoTs it has. Ignite/Pyro rolling (plus even Combustion) and your bomb is a crap ton of damage compared to Arcane Explosion/Barrage over the course of a movement heavy time period.

Having DoTs rolling isn't actually having movement DPS. To test this you can go to a dummy and cast Pyroblast on it. Two things happen; the initial spell does damage as well as put a DoT on the target. Let's say the DoT ticks for 10,000 damage and never crits. It ticks every 3 seconds over a period of 18 seconds, which is 6 ticks. 6 ticks times 10,000 damage is 60,000 damage - and that does not change if you move. This means that a DoT doesn't actually provide any extra damage while you're moving compared to what you would have done while standing still. It's a simple illusion, if you will.

Edit: Also, when moving you still don't want to drop stacks as Arcane in almost all cases. Taking heroic Vizier as an example, you would want to proritize this way; keep 6 stacks up with Arcane Explosion > refresh your DoT of choice > scorch. This would provide close to the highest movement DPS available at the time as well as minimize the amount of ramp-up time you have after Attenuation is done as you can just resume AB+X after making sure Rune of Power is active.

[zomgDPS]

- wall of snip -

That 'wooshing' sound you hear, that is the point that you seemed to have missed.

MI is not a DPS spell. Fight, struggle, argue, cry, QQ, /rage, pout, scream, shout all you like, you will never change that fact.

Take it or leave it, but it is the truth.

[LocNess]

Having DoTs rolling isn't actually having movement DPS. To test this you can go to a dummy and cast Pyroblast on it. Two things happen; the initial spell does damage as well as put a DoT on the target. Let's say the DoT ticks for 10,000 damage and never crits. It ticks every 3 seconds over a period of 18 seconds, which is 6 ticks. 6 ticks times 10,000 damage is 60,000 damage - and that does not change if you move. This means that a DoT doesn't actually provide any extra damage while you're moving compared to what you would have done while standing still. It's a simple illusion, if you will.

Boosts your overall damage which is more important. Still having damage go out even if you are moving, which is something Arcane cannot provide past an initial Arcane Barrage.

---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 07:05 PM ----------

That 'wooshing' sound you hear, that is the point that you seemed to have missed.

MI is not a DPS spell. Fight, struggle, argue, cry, QQ, /rage, pout, scream, shout all you like, you will never change that fact.

Take it or leave it, but it is the truth.

Then what is it. Just a spot on the Action Bars? Then it should be changed or removed because there is no point having a spell that has no inherent purpose.

[Rinoa]

There are very few situations in which using Arcane Barrage when moving is actually a DPS increase though. Most of the time it's best to either maintain stacks by Arcane Explosion if you have targets in range, or stutter-stepping in a quick AB / Missiles when time allows. Taking Blade Lord Tay'ak as an example, when he drags everyone in and start spinning (I forget the ability name) it's perfectly viable to keep stacks by either blinking far away and channeling a *full* Arcane Missiles without being in Rune of Power as well as sitting just on the edge of the 'storm' while scorching and refreshing stacks with Arcane Explosion.

Ideally you practically never want to ABarr on single target. It's also quite simple to avoid through clever movement and AE.

[obc]

If you are asking me if I think the spell is worth its spot on my action bars, then yes, most definitely.

If you are asking me if the spell makes a good DPS cooldown, then no. But then again, I doesn't need to be a DPS cooldown for it to be 'worth it'. i am just talking about the length of its Cooldown.

Blink does no DPS, it is most definitely 'worth it'.
People who think MIs are a DPS spell are.. well.. looking at it wrong.

MI pwns pretty hard. I'll leave it at that.

nah, i wasnt asking if MI is worth a place on one's action bar but rather if the 3 Min CD isnt too high if its mainly used as a threat dump.

on fire:

yeah you're right, scorch is a main part of fire's mobility. but still, you dont lose as much dmg with fire when moving as you'd do with frost/arcan coz you still have your dots rolling. with frost you either bank a fof or use petfreeze (not doable as much with 5.2 if no freezeable adds are around) and thats about it, which fire can somewhat compare with ignite into HSpyro. with arcan you cast Abrr once, the next Abrr hits like a wet noodle....though srsly, what i wanted to mainly talk about is what paradigm blizz want the mage to have regarding mobility or in general.

[Polarthief]

Besides when you use PoM (which won't even be until 5.2), how do you guys get your "DoTs rolling" without Scorch during mobility? Using IB? Okay. I'll enjoy my wet noodle hits that are on an 8s cooldown.

[Elegiac]

Then what is it. Just a spot on the Action Bars? Then it should be changed or removed because there is no point having a spell that has no inherent purpose.

Threat reduction. And useful for fooling idiots in random BGs.

[Polarthief]

Then what is it. Just a spot on the Action Bars? Then it should be changed or removed because there is no point having a spell that has no inherent purpose.

Good on pulls for garbage tanks; good when you need to reset/wipe-and-mass-res a fight but you have aggro and there's a good 5-6 idiots who won't die already so Invis wouldn't work; good for soloing.

Besides these three situations, I see no use for it. For its limited uses, 3m is ridiculously long. Alter Time is an amazing cooldown that can vastly increase your survivability or your damage and has the same 3m cooldown. Cauterize prevents death and has a 2m cooldown. Looking at other classes/speccs, Tanks have a 3m cooldown that is their "I need to reduce as much damage as possible" button (for Paladins, it's a 50% damage reduction for 12s). Warlocks get a +30% to a secondary stat (based on their specc) for awhile cooldown. etc etc.

All I'm saying is for 180s, MI gives you next to nothing. It should be more like a 1m or 2m cooldown (even reduce the duration if you want, idc).

[mrgreenthump]

Besides when you use PoM (which won't even be until 5.2), how do you guys get your "DoTs rolling" without Scorch during mobility? Using IB? Okay. I'll enjoy my wet noodle hits that are on an 8s cooldown.

Fact is though, most movement in this game currently is between 1 and 2 gcd's.. And for those fights fire is going smash frost and arcane. Now fire is not truly mobile, but it is pretty damn versitile, and with our crit rates going higher, we get more HS procs, meaning we can move more during gcd's.. As arcane if you move, you are going to loose dps, well maybe not that much if you have Abarr ready, but still its a loss no matter what, not to mention if you are running RoP as arcane, you got to recast it before continuing your dps. Now frost ain't as rooted as arcane, but still it looses to fire as with fire you can generate procs, given you need to have IB off cd as you said.

And yes every mage spec will blow if we get some movement that requires you to move for ~8 seconds with standard speed again. For movement that need you to get out fast we got blazing speed and blink next patch, given blazing speed would require giving up PoM, and it will directly impact our potential max dps, but the increased movement is going to make tier 1 interesting.