How do you estimate/measure your expected Raid-DPS?

[Mad_Murdock]

yet trying to maximize dps before you can actually handle all the boss mechanics does not lead to a kill either.

I'd say 99% of all wipes are not caused from not being able to handle the enrage (thus too slow dps). they are caused by someone screwing up some mechanic (sometimes even just bad luck with RNG), leading to a chain reaction, ultimately leading to the wipe.

This would normally be our problem. When we finally killed some of the bosses for the first time, we killed them 2-3 mins faster than guilds who killed them 2-3 weeks earlier and often better than their farm times. I often argue about the value of flasking and food buffs when it's wipe night. You can't get Garalon below 60%, it's not because Billy didn't flask and Johnny is missing a food buff or even that the Ele shaman is under-performing.

If a group is consistently getting to the 20% mark and wiping, then I start looking at buffs and dps. If you can't get somewhere consistently, it's most likely not a DPS problem, but a mechanics problem. With maybe the exceptions of fights like Elegon, where you can't get more than 2 orb phases down.

[Deleted]

Again, I'd like to refer to Raidbots. Seeing that you can see everyone's curve and compare that to what the class/spec should be doing. Obviously this would be hard, if you're shit geared but generally I think it's a good way to check your dps.

That said, people should kinda know, why their dps is low. Like on a fight with a lot of adds that requires melee to constantly move between adds and boss, their dps will be lower. You have to take the encounter into account and then people have to be able to analyze their own logs tbh.

Is your uptime on your most important spells close to 100% or is it closer to 50%. Did you use the right spells, did you remember to pre-pot and pot during BL etc.

I don't agree, that if the boss dies, you have enough dps. Cause that could basically just be the result of someone being good and carrying someone being shit.

[Sesshou]

But if one player's class is limited to 80% of another spec/class' output (due to class imbalance amongst all specs), how do you know who is slacking and who is doing their optimal numbers but are getting shafted by class balance?

That's part of his question.

Things like raidbots epeen bot or WoL's ranking info tab. Now for classes with multiple dps specs of the same role, you have to also know what spec is their best spec for the fight because if they aren't playing it, the numbers those give are worthless.

Now you may be less or more geared than the average people on those lists, but it doesn't matter. If your best player is constantly at 90% ranking threshold or higher and you also have people at 70% or lower, either they are slacking or your strat for the encounter is quite different from the average one. This isn't quite as good for new players as they might have a lower item level, but in general if you run the same group, you should have roughly the same ilvl and be able to (ignoring only skill differences) pull roughly the same % of the ranking threshold.

[Sheridanjohn]

If you aren't progressing with top tier guilds, then you have a few tools at your disposal which have been mentioned.

First of all look at Raidbots, if the raiders dps is low compared to average then you have a problem, if it is high then there shouldn't be a problem in the first place.

Secondly look at your logs, i would recommend looking at up time % on Dots, if it is low then look at other players on the same fight and see if it is low across the board, if not then you have found your problem (most likely).

Thirdly if their up time is high i would look at their reforge and compare it to top end raiders reforge, use tools such as guildox or wowprogress to find these players.

The last factor will be their rotation, this is a hard issue to fix as it involves relearning a class.

[Deleted]

This would normally be our problem. When we finally killed some of the bosses for the first time, we killed them 2-3 mins faster than guilds who killed them 2-3 weeks earlier and often better than their farm times. I often argue about the value of flasking and food buffs when it's wipe night. You can't get Garalon below 60%, it's not because Billy didn't flask and Johnny is missing a food buff or even that the Ele shaman is under-performing.

If a group is consistently getting to the 20% mark and wiping, then I start looking at buffs and dps. If you can't get somewhere consistently, it's most likely not a DPS problem, but a mechanics problem. With maybe the exceptions of fights like Elegon, where you can't get more than 2 orb phases down.

I respectfully disagree. Mechanics and numbers cannot be separated totally. The higher the numbers you can produce, the more room you have to learn or fail to mechanics. Every single guild can experience the fact that at the end of a tier a given boss is much much easier to down because of better stuffs. Running a wipe night without any food buff and flask is like running the fight under-geared or with 9 people instead of 10. Still doable in most cases, but mechanics become suddenly much more unforgiving.

In a progression point of view, healers, tanks and dps should always aim to produce the higher numbers they could. In addition to Epeenbot, you could pick 10 guilds with comparable progress than yours, and watch how their dps/heal do compare with yours.

[xebtria]

I respectfully disagree. Mechanics and numbers cannot be separated totally. The higher the numbers you can produce, the more room you have to learn or fail to mechanics. Every single guild can experience the fact that at the end of a tier a given boss is much much easier to down because of better stuffs. Running a wipe night without any food buff and flask is like running the fight under-geared or with 9 people instead of 10. Still doable in most cases, but mechanics become suddenly much more unforgiving.

In a progression point of view, healers, tanks and dps should always aim to produce the higher numbers they could. In addition to Epeenbot, you could pick 10 guilds with comparable progress than yours, and watch how their dps/heal do compare with yours.

depends on the boss.
example time: stone guards in MSV: dps does not matter at all. mechanics are totally seperated from numbers. you WILL wipe if tanks screw up the taunting. you WILL wipe if dps/healers screw up the chains (if they are present). more dps does not help at all if you screw these two up.

but of course, you are somewhat right. it cant be seperated totally, but it is very depending on the fight. some require a certain dps for a mechanic, some don't, but the majority is a quite good mixture. they require a certain dps to beat the mechanic, and after that breakpoint, more dps always helps, but is not necessary to beat the boss.

[Deleted]

yet trying to maximize dps before you can actually handle all the boss mechanics does not lead to a kill either.

I'd say 99% of all wipes are not caused from not being able to handle the enrage (thus too slow dps). they are caused by someone screwing up some mechanic (sometimes even just bad luck with RNG), leading to a chain reaction, ultimately leading to the wipe.

99% is not really the correct number. If you include soft enrages too, you will realise that it happens far more often. But yet again, it varies a lot between tiers and guilds. Just look at Dragon Soul for example. On heroic progression I wiped far more than once on either a soft enrage or a hard enrage (25man heroic) on the following bosses: Zon'ozz, Yor'sahj, Hagara, Ultraxion, Warmaster Blackhorn, Spine of Deathwing and Madness of Deathwing. Which is 7/8 bosses.

The further engaged you become in heroic modes, the more you will realise how crucial high dps will affect your succes ratio of killing a boss. Maybe it's because you are less carried by gear, and probably doing fewer mistakes that could lead to wipe, but my point still stands that high DPS will definitely help you killling a boss wether you realise it or not, independent on what mechanics are causing you to wipe.

If DPS didn't matter, 25man guilds for example would be bringing 10 healers for every fight, yet this isnt the case.

[Simulacrum]

depends on the boss.
example time: stone guards in MSV: dps does not matter at all. mechanics are totally seperated from numbers. you WILL wipe if tanks screw up the taunting. you WILL wipe if dps/healers screw up the chains (if they are present). more dps does not help at all if you screw these two up.

...

Uh... but, like he says, more dps means there's less time for possible mistakes to happen in. So it does absolutely help. Using stone guards as an example, a weak raid will wipe after one or two tank taunt fails, but a strong raid can just keep going through a practically infinite number of them and kill the boss anyway. I did a terrible normal MSV alt raid a few weeks ago with my holy paladin main, and even though we had them detonate 4 times, I was still able to just heal through all the damage and we still killed it just fine. You can heal through people running into mines. You can heal through chains with some effort. If we'd had more dps, maybe they'd only have detonated 3 times, which would've meant that even weaker healers would've been able to heal through the fails.

Obviously, numbers do matter a lot.

Even if you have a mechanic that instantly wipes you, having 2 minutes of the fight where that can happen instead of 3 minutes greatly lowers the chance that it will.

[Deleted]

Thank you for replies.

I was talking about progression. Normally you didn't killed the boss and no he is not dead this is the reason I am looking for an improvement. Epeenbot seems to be very nice, but it works only for ranked kills, right?

I have to agree with Ryme. Simply run into enrage doesn't mean your DPS did everything right until then. Certain boss mechaincs with target switch, movement, important transitions makes it hard to tell weather someone did his job good or not.

My main problem is to understand if my raid dps is good (expected) or not. Don't tell me "boss is dead everything is ok". No, the boss is not dead thats why I am looking for improvement and improvement means to identify weak spots in your raid. I know, not every mechanic can be "outplayed" by throwing more dps, but it makes things easier.


I remember some Deathwing HC farm kills where we told our DPS to stop because this blood stuff stacked so fast and two healer could not manage the incoming raid-damage.