Where have all the Raiders Gone?

[-Superman-]

MY Guess... LFR. Why bother to try and stick to a strict raid schedule for 25M when you can randomly jump into LFR where you + 24 misc "raid" and see the content? Just makes more sense since people are having busier lives and may not have the same amount of time they had during TBC and Wrath to get geared and do 25M content in reg mode.

LFR is more popular than ever just judging by the amount of complaints about the loot drops and gold bags. I would imagine LFR is the way raiding will continue to move until 25M heroic for guilds goes the way of the wagon in an era of jet planes.

[ihyln]

I have a feeling that Blizzard's unannounced feature will be LFR for Normal and Heroic modes. If they do that I may just resub. Raiding on my own schedule instead of having it feel like a job will be the best thing ever.

[-Superman-]

I have a feeling that Blizzard's unannounced feature will be LFR for Normal and Heroic modes. If they do that I may just resub. Raiding on my own schedule instead of having it feel like a job will be the best thing ever.

I think LFR reg / heroic is a great idea. Not everyone has the time to be a dedicated raider like they did way back when. If they did, they'd probably need to take a long hard look in the mirror and figure out why their life has not changed in 5+ years lol

[Drfireburns]

I think LFR reg / heroic is a great idea. Not everyone has the time to be a dedicated raider like they did way back when. If they did, they'd probably need to take a long hard look in the mirror and figure out why their life has not changed in 5+ years lol

Good point. 5+ years ago I was able to raid like that working a dead end job and not being married. Haha, that all changed pretty quickly. LFR is just fine with me.

[calanos]

Maybe its just because I raid normal modes as well so its the 2nd time each week I do the instances, but I find LFR to be intolerable.

Between raiding LFR only or just quitting WoW, I would absolutely just quit WoW. Its not "seeing content" to me if the difficulty in that content stems entirely from your 25-player raid having 4 people AFK, and tank in green gear who has higher iLvl DPS gear that gets him into LFR anyway, 2 people queued as healers who are instead DPSing, and 8-10 people who are not good at WoW. Other than that LFR is easier than the 5-man dungeons. Who cares if you are gearing up if the gear doesn't matter for harder content that requires it?

I'd go play a different game, which is what I do when life gets too busy to raid. But apparently a significant number of people find that gameplay compelling enough to stop raiding

[yjmark]

I think that one factor which results in the number of people raiding normal/heroic going down is the simple fact that raiding is getting old.

Vanilla - barely anyone raided.
Toward the end of TBC, more and more people finally started raiding.
WotLK - Blizz saw how many people liked raiding, so they made it more accessible, and it boomed.
Cata - kept up the WotLK trend. People started getting cranky about raiding in the 2nd half of Cata.
MoP - people are starting to realize that raiding is no longer new or shiny to them, so they are starting to get bored of it. After 5 years of raiding...what do you expect? The effort to successfully raid normals/heroics is not worth it anymore to a lot of folks.

At least, that's just my guess

Personally, I still raid (not LFR), and I love it. But I also feel that I am not part of the majority. I don't raid for gear. I raid because I enjoy hanging out with my friends/guildies, and try to take down bosses.

[Osmeric]

We know for a fact that the majority of all the sub losses since Cata have been in the East specifically China

We do not know this. Blizzard has never said this. You are spitting falsehoods.

[Firebert]

The raiders have left, and then not been allowed back in because you can't stop being a raider.

So long as guilds and raid leaders have a self-harming attitude for recruitment, the raiding population's going to drop.

---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 10:03 PM ----------

I have a feeling that Blizzard's unannounced feature will be LFR for Normal and Heroic modes. If they do that I may just resub. Raiding on my own schedule instead of having it feel like a job will be the best thing ever.

This.

The two greatest success stories of WoW have been LFD and LFR. It'd be a waste not to implement the same tech over the rest of the game.

[Firecrest]

The raiders have left, and then not been allowed back in because you can't stop being a raider.

So long as guilds and raid leaders have a self-harming attitude for recruitment, the raiding population's going to drop.

Sounds like someone had a bad personal experience. If ever this was a problem (doubtfull), it's not anymore. There are lots of contributers to the declining raiding population, but this one is so minute that "guilds are being too picky" doesn't even bear mentioning. There are dozens of examples just in this thread of raid leaders who have turned to /2 to fill out their roster. By very definition, you've given up all semblance of exclusivity the moment you type "LFM" into General Chat.

Like I said. This reeks of "I app'ed to a guild and they told me I was bad, so this must be why guilds are dying."

[Resentful]

I got bored after doing it for so long but that's just me haha no really It's really REALLY boring after doing it for years.

[Otimus]

Sounds like someone had a bad personal experience. If ever this was a problem (doubtfull), it's not anymore. There are lots of contributers to the declining raiding population, but this one is so minute that "guilds are being too picky" doesn't even bear mentioning. There are dozens of examples just in this thread of raid leaders who have turned to /2 to fill out their roster. By very definition, you've given up all semblance of exclusivity the moment you type "LFM" into General Chat.

Like I said. This reeks of "I app'ed to a guild and they told me I was bad, so this must be why guilds are dying."

Yeeeeeah... aren't those people in /2 usually saying "LFM....who have already done it!". I think that was more or less his point, and it's pretty true. The raiding community is HIGHLY exclusionary.

[Tragopan]

Perhaps people finally realized that having a second job wasn't the most fun and/or relaxing thing they could do with their WoW time.

Either that or, as was mentioned previously, the raiding community has become so exclusive that no one new is good enough for them anymore and they are dying out.

[Zantera]

I raided hardcore through TBC and through most of WotLK, never got to kill LK before Cata came out, but did the rest. Since Cata came out I've been playing the game casually. I raid LFR every week on my main, and if I have time over, I do it on alts as well. It's hard to say why I stopped, one reason was that a lot of my close raiding pals stopped or migrated, another reason was the fact that the raids (and bosses) imo became more and more boring. But the main reason is that I like this freedom. I can play whenever I want with no strings attached. I remember raiding 4 nights a week, and it was pretty much obligatory to be there every time. Sure you could miss a raid if you had a reason, but that meant missed DKP, and in the long run less chance of getting the awesome gear-upgrades. Right now I don't have to explain myself to anyone if I feel like watching a movie one night instead of playing, or going to a concert or whatever. I like the freedom, and that is the good side of LFR IMO. I can do it whenever I want to.

[kenshinag]

I think as the playerbase in general gets older a lot less have time to dedicate to raiding in scheduled groups. I started playing in vanilla when I was in college, now 28 and married with 2 kids so obviously priorities have shifted. I went from 40 man to 25 to 10 man by the end of Cata. I also think I'm one of the rare lucky ones who has a spouse that will let him stay on the computer for 3-4 hours straight for our 2 raid nights. A lot of my friends who still play if they can't join our 10 man just stick to LFR. It's fine for them and I'm glad it makes them happy.

[Anshinritsumai]

I stopped doing actual raiding as early as mid TBC, it just got too time consuming. LFR can't really be called raiding, but it's enough to keep me somewhat satisfied.

This is pretty much me as well.

[Lord Blackmore]

Wrong. I ran a poll here on this very topic, and most players agree that "seeing all the content" means "seeing it as it was ORIGINALLY designed, without any nerfs." Most players agree that seeing a raid zone in LFR does NOT count as seeing the content. Its closer to using an editor to walk thru the physical locations. You aren't actually getting to see the GENUINE fights. So, you haven't seen the content.

I'll do the poll again to show you. Look for it.

You ran a poll on a site which a tiny fraction of the player base will see and the ones that do see it tend to be more vocal and opinionated that the average player. In short, it holds no validity beyond the boundaries of this site. And besides, who are you or anyone else to tell Airwaves what they consider "seeing all the content" is invalid (especially based on a poll of limited value)?

As far as I'm concerned, I don't have to do all of the raid mechanics to see "all the content", regardless of what a bunch of people on MMO-C think.

[Firebert]

By very definition, you've given up all semblance of exclusivity the moment you type "LFM" into General Chat.

Personal attacks aside, you can still call for more in Trade chat and still be extremely exculsive. "LFM ToT Normal, must have at least 1/12N" currently excludes (at most) 95% of all raiders on my realm, and I think you'd find that wouldn't be too harsh a restriction on other realms.

Once again, so long as guilds and raid leaders are extremely restrictive, they'll continue to hurt themselves.

[Demeia]

Why on earth is this a mystery? They killed raids when they went to a 10m model. We absolutely know that. The problems is they will probably kill their game if they try to force us back to 25m.

The only sensible solution was to take 10m and 25m off lockout which they seem loathe to do.

I can assure you making the raids as technically demanding as the goddamn normals are right now is not helping them one bit. T14 was ridiculous; t15 is just going to make people quit normal modes.

[Eisenstein]

Yeeeeeah... aren't those people in /2 usually saying "LFM....who have already done it!". I think that was more or less his point, and it's pretty true. The raiding community is HIGHLY exclusionary.

I can agree with you in a way but we are because it does take a certain level of dedication to do your job in a raid group. If WoW is a reflection of our messed up society in a way where people want instant gratification with out any effort. I don't hold this against the people who don't want to make the effort to be a high level raider for sure. The casual aspect of the game is as important as any spot in the game. What makes the exclusionary part is when a person comes in to a guild expecting a raid spot but have no idea how to use there class. Then get mad when they are sat because they are pulling 50% of the dps possible for their gear level. As a GM and a raid leader I would love to bring in every person who wants to raid but I have to answer to 8 other people about that.

[Herrenos]

Why on earth is this a mystery? They killed raids when they went to a 10m model. We absolutely know that. The problems is they will probably kill their game if they try to force us back to 25m.

The only sensible solution was to take 10m and 25m off lockout which they seem loathe to do.

I can assure you making the raids as technically demanding as the goddamn normals are right now is not helping them one bit. T14 was ridiculous; t15 is just going to make people quit normal modes.

Ending LFR and nerfing normal modes would do it too. LFR was the harbinger of the end. The difficulty of normal modes is the method.