Where have all the Raiders Gone?

[SodiumChloride]

Looks like the hardcore elitist of WoW got what they wanted.

They QQ that Blizzard nerfs content to cater to the "bads". Blizzard points out that the skill range of the player base is very large, that they can't make it too hard.

Solution? Different tiers of difficulty. Now that the "bads" are out of their normal/heroic mode, they QQ raiding is dying ...

[Deleted]

Its not only the fewer people are raiding, you didnt understand my example.

A decent amount of people TRIED to raid normal, and a very small percentage SUCCEEDED at it. 40k guilds tried Normal raiding, only 13k killed empres after 5 WHOOPING MONTHS with item upgrades.

Only 20k have killed a really easy boss after 5 weeks.

Fewer people are raiding, and we cant know for sure if it is because its hard, but of the people that ARE RAIDING NORMALS, very few finish them, which we CAN BLAME to difficulty mainly (of course, other factors might have being involved on some of those guilds, but not to such a bulk of them).

I am being objective, i am not using a preconceive notion, i am analyzing data.

So the question ends up being why schould you even try normal mode, when you get almost instant gratification in LFR you see the whole instance something that less than 50% get to see of those who tried normal mode raiding.
And on top of that LFR gear is not half bad it is not a Harley, it might only be a honda but it is still a frecking motorcycle.

Of course we end up with whining post about people who haven't got LFR "BiS" after 3 weeks now a days...
It is almost as if after 2 weeks in a dungeon LFR users find out how many cunts and assholes are in those raids and want to get the fuck out of dodge as fast as possible, but if only they could get those shiney pixels that they went into the place for in the first place.
I can understand them because LFR is annoying and waiting on the que to pop up is almost even worse and a complete and utter waste of my time. I know it was annoying finding people for a small pug back in the day but I would still prefer it to the current state of the game.

[MrSerious]

Looks like the hardcore elitist of WoW got what they wanted.

They QQ that Blizzard nerfs content to cater to the "bads". Blizzard points out that the skill range of the player base is very large, that they can't make it too hard.

Solution? Different tiers of difficulty. Now that the "bads" are out of their normal/heroic mode, they QQ raiding is dying ...

haha, never thought about like this but its the truth.

[Grummgug]

Never stopped people before;

What are you talking about?

I quit raiding full time in Burning Crusade because I got sick of the gear treadmill.

I got heavy into 59 twinks after I quit raiding, until Blizz destroyed it.

After that I got into trial account level 20 PvP, simply because there is no gear treadmill. Although I haven't played in months.

Don't tell me the gear treadmill didn't drive people away. It drove me away.

[Tomana]

It is almost as if after 2 weeks in a dungeon LFR users find out how many cunts and assholes are in those raids and want to get the fuck out of dodge as fast as possible, but if only they could get those shiney pixels that they went into the place for in the first place.

That is your interpretation. Sure, you can have some facedesk moments in the LFR, but other than that, the bosses die pretty quickly.

I can understand them because LFR is annoying and waiting on the que to pop up is almost even worse and a complete and utter waste of my time. I know it was annoying finding people for a small pug back in the day but I would still prefer it to the current state of the game.

Then you must some weird taste because spamming /1 for hours is orders of magnitude more annoying than waiting in a queue. At least you can go out and grind stuff, get mats, do quests, etc...

[Ragedaug]

The two main reasons I can think of is:
LFR gives a better option to people who where raiding normals only because it was the only raiding option they had.
Normal modes are very difficult, to the point where alot of guilds are unable to do them.

Obviously for many raiding guilds, normal modes presented a good challenge, however to that bottom 30%, who would bring friends and family, who aren't very good at raiding - low DPS/HPS, slow to react, etc. - normal modes were too hard. When you turn to Blizzard and the forums and the answer is, "if you want to do guild progression raiding, don't plan on bringing your friends and family", it turned a lot of that group off.

For my guild personally, we just had people that got tired of wiping to the first boss week after week, even after we had progressed a few bosses past him. And because our raid nights were stuck on the first 1-3 bosses, people weren't getting any loot, and because people weren't getting loot / better gear we weren't making any progress on getting better, and we started to see this slow bleed from the guild as disinterested players stopped playing. These guys didn't do LFR, they just stopped playing. Personally I would take wiping in progression raiding to random LFR'ing any day, and I believe most of them felt the same.

So I don't think the draw of LFR is what killed raiding. I think it was Blizzard seeing LFR as an opportunity to make normals more difficult, which killed many casual guilds.

[HardCoder]

Obviously for many raiding guilds, normal modes presented a good challenge, however to that bottom 30%, who would bring friends and family, who aren't very good at raiding - low DPS/HPS, slow to react, etc. - normal modes were too hard. When you turn to Blizzard and the forums and the answer is, "if you want to do guild progression raiding, don't plan on bringing your friends and family", it turned a lot of that group off.

Yeah, this is an important point. If you want to go raid with 9 friends, and you are pretty bad at the game and/or drink heavily while playing and/or talk about pretty much anything other than nerdy WoW horseshit while you are killing pixels, well, where do you go now?

You wouldn't get through much of T14 now, even.

You can't go to LFR because you'd be 10 drunk buddies in LFR and exactly how much fun would that be? I mean, it COULD be fun. But ....

So, I dunno, you would go back to Firelands?

Basically there is no easy mode 10 man for "organized but bad" groups. There used to be, though. It's gone now.

[Toxigen]

Yeah, this is an important point. If you want to go raid with 9 friends, and you are pretty bad at the game and/or drink heavily while playing and/or talk about pretty much anything other than nerdy WoW horseshit while you are killing pixels, well, where do you go now?

You wouldn't get through much of T14 now, even.

You can't go to LFR because you'd be 10 drunk buddies in LFR and exactly how much fun would that be? I mean, it COULD be fun. But ....

So, I dunno, you would go back to Firelands?

Basically there is no easy mode 10 man for "organized but bad" groups. There used to be, though. It's gone now.

Honestly, if you're in that bottom percentile range...you just do old content on normal mode. If you're just getting drunk with 9 other friends / family and talking about everything BUT WoW-related things, why do you care if you're killing "current" pixels anyway?

Tough luck. Raiding outside of LFR should be challenging and require at least some sort of understanding of the game.

[Ragedaug]

So the question ends up being why schould you even try normal mode, when you get almost instant gratification in LFR you see the whole instance something that less than 50% get to see of those who tried normal mode raiding.
And on top of that LFR gear is not half bad it is not a Harley, it might only be a honda but it is still a frecking motorcycle.

Because raiding normal mode is raiding with friends. Raiding LFR is raiding with a bunch of disinterested strangers. The problem is that normal modes is too hard to beat when raiding with friends so it's not an option.

They aren't choosing LFR, they are being designated to it.

Other then a way to help fill gear slots that are still low item level, LFR has no redeeming qualities. Then you top that with the failed loot distribution in LFR and you will find very few players that come out and say "I love LFR!"

Easy doesn't always equal fun. Most people will will choose fun over easy when presented a choice. But when "fun" is put on a high shelf that is out of reach, they do "easy" because that's all the can get.

[Osmeric]

Obviously for many raiding guilds, normal modes presented a good challenge, however to that bottom 30%, who would bring friends and family, who aren't very good at raiding - low DPS/HPS, slow to react, etc. - normal modes were too hard.

Judging by the numbers, it's a lot more than 30%. Remember, a good number of people have bled out from organized raiding since Wrath and don't show up in the raiding population anymore. Those people are being excluded even if the hardcores want to dismiss them as "not interested, therefore they don't count".

So I don't think the draw of LFR is what killed raiding. I think it was Blizzard seeing LFR as an opportunity to make normals more difficult, which killed many casual guilds.

Yes. The 180 degree turn they did from Wrath is just inexplicable, and they really haven't reversed again. I don't have much hope that the collapse of organized raiding we're seeing will change things -- this is not rationally motivated on Blizzard's part. I suspect it's going to take replacement of those responsible to actually change course. Here's hoping the collapse snowballs, so it cannot be whitewashed.

[Toxigen]

Because raiding normal mode is raiding with friends. Raiding LFR is raiding with a bunch of disinterested strangers. The problem is that normal modes is too hard to beat when raiding with friends so it's not an option.

Seriously, boo-fucking-hoo. Like I said in my previous post, if you're not at all interested in improving your PvE play and overcoming a challenge (let's face it, normal modes are not challenging unless you're an outright mouth breather)...then you should just raid a tier or two behind and be satisfied that you have a raid to be in while you chit chat with your friends and/or family. If your primary interest is socializing with friends while killing pixels, it shouldn't be important whether or not those pixels are current.

I'm ashamed at the current state of the MMO community. What used to be a hard, proud, tight-knit entity has digressed over the last 9 years into a cesspool of whiny babies that only wish to be fed with a silver spoon. Pathetic.

[HardCoder]

Tough luck. Raiding outside of LFR should be challenging and require at least some sort of understanding of the game.

Here is a serious question.

Why?

[Osmeric]

Seriously, boo-fucking-hoo. Like I said in my previous post, if you're not at all interested in improving your PvE play and overcoming a challenge (seriously, normal modes are not challenging)...then you should just raid a tier or two behind current and deal with it.

Sorry, you're not allowed to define what other people want.

(I lied; I'm not sorry.)

[Ragedaug]

Honestly, if you're in that bottom percentile range...you just do old content on normal mode. If you're just getting drunk with 9 other friends / family and talking about everything BUT WoW-related things, why do you care if you're killing "current" pixels anyway?

Tough luck. Raiding outside of LFR should be challenging and require at least some sort of understanding of the game.

THEY ARE! (sorry to yell, but I wanted to highlight that point)

Do you not get the point of this thread? The question is, "where did they go". They are obviously not doing the current raiding content because they can't. They used to be able to...AND they had fun while doing it. Now they can't, so they are doing other things. For my friends, the "other things" are non-WoW games.

This answer always blows me away, because your answer to the problem is "GTFO", then when everyone does, you go "where did they all go!?". Raiding is dying. When raiding dies, WoW becomes like all the other MMOs out there (IMO). Telling people who aren't good at progression raiding, but liked doing it to go away is shoting yourself in the foot.

[HardCoder]

THEY ARE! (sorry to yell, but I wanted to highlight that point)

Do you not get the point of this thread? The question is, "where did they go". They are obviously not doing the current raiding content because they can't. They used to be able to...AND they had fun while doing it. Now they can't, so they are doing other things. For my friends, the "other things" are non-WoW games.

This answer always blows me away, because your answer to the problem is "GTFO", then when everyone does, you go "where did they all go!?". Raiding is dying. When raiding dies, WoW becomes like all the other MMOs out there (IMO). Telling people who aren't good at progression raiding, but liked doing it to go away is shoting yourself in the foot.

It's becoming increasingly clear to me that the answer to the question "Where have all the Raiders Gone?" is: "Away. Because that's where the raiders want them."

The first "raiding guild" officer who created a website and put an "application" on it was no doubt drinking and laughing up a storm at the completely ridiculous thing he was doing.

What happens when you take your game too seriously is that no one wants to play it with you, and the people who are playing it with you now, leave.

[Glorious Leader]

Honestly normal modes are just to overloaded. I like a challenge but I don't like being placed in positions where I'm constantly having to make snap decisions that are often times rock and hard place decisions that can result in only negative out comes. Tortos is the worst for that. As a paladin healer in 10 man I have to at some point stop and heal but I can't because theirs to much shit around me (rockfall and turtles shells) but if I don't someone is going to die. So I have to chose between someone dying or eating the the fucking damage from shit around me. It's REAL frustrating how over loaded things are. It's funny last week I was bitching about Horridon but my job on Horridon was rather simple. All I had to do was heal the tanks. Yea it felt overtuned and tanks would get smacked around but my job wasn't overwhelming. Tortos it feels pretty overwhelming. To much shit to constantly have to pay attention to IN ADDITION to actually having to pay attention to being a healer. This is coming from someone who's raided for 7 years (mostly just on normals and in cata heroic riads) and is by no means inexperienced or new at this.

[Toxigen]

Telling people who aren't good at progression raiding, but liked doing it to go away is shoting yourself in the foot.

Wait, what? If you enjoy progression raiding...then you enjoy putting in the time to overcome a challenge for your group. This means wiping...at times wiping over and over again.

Are you guys quitting after 20 tries on xxxxx tier 14 boss? 50? 100? When do you deem a boss impossible for your group that wants to socialize and not focus on the challenge at hand?

@glorious: yeah, but you're progressing through current normal mode content...does that offer no satisfaction at all?

[Glorious Leader]

THEY ARE! (sorry to yell, but I wanted to highlight that point)

Do you not get the point of this thread? The question is, "where did they go". They are obviously not doing the current raiding content because they can't. They used to be able to...AND they had fun while doing it. Now they can't, so they are doing other things. For my friends, the "other things" are non-WoW games.

This answer always blows me away, because your answer to the problem is "GTFO", then when everyone does, you go "where did they all go!?". Raiding is dying. When raiding dies, WoW becomes like all the other MMOs out there (IMO). Telling people who aren't good at progression raiding, but liked doing it to go away is shoting yourself in the foot.

It's so insane. I'm positive these people don't want normal raiding to bleed this much and become a niche thing but their defending the current tier of raiding which is doing exactly that. Look I'm not for faceroll raids, and I know this discussion will eventually turn into that, but I am for 10 mans that have a wide enough tuning that I'm not overwhelmed and I can take my buds in and we can beer league a few bosses in. Just chill and hang out in a raid and have a blast not white knuckled to the mouse and keyboard.


Look in the end you may be in favor of harder stuff but at some point the drop in raid participation will begin to affect you to. Even if your guild is fairly set, you will eventually come to feel the affects of attrition and raid turnover and then what? Where will you recruit? where have all the cowboys gone? Well when they made normal raids tougher you start to see fewer and fewer people raiding. After that tortos attempt last night when I was to busy healing cause people were gonna die and couldn't run from fucking rockfall in time (ergo apparently making the wrong decision because the correct decision would have been letting folks die) I started to really question wether or not I wanted to keep raiding. I enjoy raiding and have always done it when I was subscribed to warcraft. Now I'm not sure I really want to keep doing it anymore. I like spending time with my friends and I'm a pretty good paladin healer or I used to think I was but I guess not now. The worst part about this is that it's really undermined my confidence in my ability to play this game, even though for years I have and have played it at all sorts of difficulties. Now it feels like I just can't keep up with all the chaos and all the overload and it kinda sucks.

[dd614]

I think a lot of it is burnout and the normal/heroic situation. People are sick of doing the same fight with added damage or a tiny new gimmick. Get rid of normal/heroic and make it like BC again. Tune each encounter somewhere in between its normal and heroic mode with possibly the final couple of bosses being more akin to their current heroic version.

[Ragedaug]

Wait, what? If you enjoy progression raiding...then you enjoy putting in the time to overcome a challenge for your group. This means wiping...at times wiping over and over again.

Are you guys quitting after 20 tries on xxxxx tier 14 boss? 50? 100? When do you deem a boss impossible for your group that wants to socialize and not focus on the challenge at hand?

Exactly how do I do that when 5 of my progression raiding friends quit playing? And how is this better for the game, when all the players that don't live up to your raiding expectations quit?