10m Amount of loot issue.

[Deleted]

Well for casual 10 mans it is fine, and you would bring most buffs. Hardly any classes are that bad for 10 man that you would totally skip them.

Perhaps for the very top tier of raiding you would class stack ot an extent in 10 man but that is 0.000001% of the community. (aka the guilds in the top 10 of progress).


The size of a realm isn't that bad. On huge realms a problem is getting people to join you rather than the 'bigger' guilds, or just rather than simmilar guilds.

On small realms there is a tiny player base, which just makes 10 man unconditionally easier.

@vapo I was not talking about the BEST comp, just making an easly viable one. The shadow priest would be os healer should somebody for example not be able to make it. you can switch the spriest with a dk dps or something if that would make the loot issue better.

Who's to say that 25 mans wont run with just 1 hpaladin or 1 caster mail shaman, they could get DOUBLE disencahnt on one boss.

[Seriss]

I dont know why you would ever use anything over disc priest in 10man. Or warrior over paladin. And even with that sort of setups that actually can use most of loots first time they drop, if you get it 2nd time or 3rd time its DE again and 50% loot wasted.

We don't have a disc priest (only brought in our raid leader's alt for a few fights in T14 because there was less of a chance for instagibs that way... but we generally run without disc priest). As of yet, I haven't been pressured into rerolling despite having a halfway geared priest alt. Besides, it wouldn't help the loot issue which is the topic at hand:

If I rerolled to disc, who would take the int-mail? Yay, more shards? :P

I think arguments about raid composition don't have a place here. We run with rosters that have evolved over time just as our friendships have formed in this game, and while you can fill up with new people here and there if someone from the core group cannot raid anymore for some reason, it's not as easy as saying "Here, I created a roster for you that covers every buff. Now get your roster to adjust to that and you'll not DE anything anymore from any boss at all and you'll be the ideal setup for any encounter too! Never mind that you'll have to force people to reroll or kick them and all... It's sacrifices you have to make for loot!" Also: What Vapo said. Nothing keeps things from dropping over and over and over despite the one person who can use it already having it.

[Deleted]

I raid in a 25 man guild and we do constantly end up DE'ing loot, as more than often you get 2x the same item, and luckily enough those same items keep dropping week after week.

I'm not sure how "unheard" of this is, based on the replies here, but even for our 25's we keep swapping people in and out for bosses purely depending on who needs loot from what. If we're about to kill a boss that drops say agi mail trousers and we dont have an agi mail user in the raid, we tend to get an agi mail user in the raid assuming we have one online that needs the loot. It takes a minute after each boss to ask who needs a certain boss and to summon them in, thus minimizing the amount of gear that goes to waste.

It's slightly questionable to argue a 10man with 4 plate users and 5 cloth users whine they have to DE so much loot if they've got no leather/mail users in the raid. I realize that's pushing the situation, but the point remains the same. I also realize not all 10mans have the luxury of swapping people around, but maybe it's worth consideration.

[Tyllis]

Strong group composition is arguable at best. What will you do with all the strength gear with haste or crit on btw? One of the tank's offspec? Sure, 'cause there's tons of 1-tank fights. Also 3 main-spec healers and 1 off-spec healer?

I love all the aneckdotal evidence that gets thrown left right and centre by both sides. Means absolutely nothing. 25m gears up faster yes, and 10m has more rng/less loot/will DE more stuff quicker, it's simple math. Meh. Only thing I'd kind of want would be going back to FL days or earlier, where tier tokens were an extra, and didn't take place for a piece of loot.

I think it's worth noting that this tier is intentionally setup so that getting a full BiS set is very hard but getting a GEiS ("good enough in slot") is much easier. With 12 (or 13) bosses to loot, there's a lot more chances to fill your slots than in a 7 boss tier like Firelands. So, even though a lot of 10-man loot gets wasted (totally agree with your math), you're still in a better position to get reasonable gearing than in the short BiS or bust tiers.

[Vapo]

@Tenaru: we have atm roster of 12, we do swap people in/out whether they need gear from bosses or not.(atleast for farm bosses) But that doesnt remove the fact that there will still be lots of possible loot that is not needed.

[Seriss]

I raid in a 25 man guild and we do constantly end up DE'ing loot, as more than often you get 2x the same item, and luckily enough those same items keep dropping week after week.

I'm not sure how "unheard" of this is, based on the replies here, but even for our 25's we keep swapping people in and out for bosses purely depending on who needs loot from what. If we're about to kill a boss that drops say agi mail trousers and we dont have an agi mail user in the raid, we tend to get an agi mail user in the raid assuming we have one online that needs the loot. It takes a minute after each boss to ask who needs a certain boss and to summon them in, thus minimizing the amount of gear that goes to waste.

It's slightly questionable to argue a 10man with 4 plate users and 5 cloth users whine they have to DE so much loot if they've got no leather/mail users in the raid. I realize that's pushing the situation, but the point remains the same. I also realize not all 10mans have the luxury of swapping people around, but maybe it's worth consideration.

Of course it's not unheard of. Many people in this thread have ample 25-man experience and know how the loot there looks despite going the 10-man route at the moment.

What people in this thread here are missing is that it's not about 25-mans.

It's about 10-man RNG. About how you kill Council heroic, after hours of having bashed your head against it, do your nerd screams and find... oh... well, the tier token is cool, but... hey.. can anybody use that other item? It's even thunderforged! We're so lucky... Nobody? Not even for off-spec? Damn.

It's far less likely for that situation to happen when more than just this 1 item drops, isn't it? It can still happen, yes. But the probability is a tiny bit less.

That's what sucks. Regardless of all the petty "I'm better than you because..." squabbles between the different raid sizes.

What sucks is that you get 1 item after a lot of bashing your head against a boss. And that item might be crap. And that's sad.

In any situation where more items drop, the chance for at least one of them to be usable and to make someone happy is higher. That's something that nobody should be able to argue. You may still be subject to bad luck in such a case, you might still get double mail-agi with no hunter or shaman in the raid, yes, but at least you have better chances.

[Vapo]

It's about 10-man RNG. About how you kill Council heroic, after hours of having bashed your head against it, do your nerd screams and find... oh... well, the tier token is cool, but... hey.. can anybody use that other item? It's even thunderforged! We're so lucky... Nobody? Not even for off-spec? Damn.

This is what happened on our council hc kill, we got the plate tanking chest(hit-parry) that went to DE because neither me nor our DK wanted it because it has just.. bad stats. Our Tortos farm kill wasnt that much better either we got Leather spirit chest, that our MW monk either didnt want or already had. And we got Agility leather gloves that went do DE because our druid tank, feral dps, or MW monk didnt want it for mainspec nor offspec. so we ended up DEing 100% of our loot from that kill.
There was people who could have used it in theory, but for reason or another didnt need nor want the items.

[Deleted]

So not wanting any of the loot dropping even if you have people who can use them accounts for bad RNG now? Alright.

If people are purely after BiS then yeah, it most likely will take some time to get the loot one wants.

There is probably a higher chance of something dropping that a single person might want ina a 25 (more ppl who want it too), my point from the previous post wasn't meant in a "25 vs 10man" way, more in a "even in a 25 man we swap people in and out the raid in case there is something dropping no one in the raid can use"- kind of way, thus making it reasonable for a 10 man as well. Not that I want to feed my opinion down your throat, I'm happy with the current system either way, being in a 25

[Shimitsu]

I'll never forget our first heroic Madness kill back when we were still wearing quite a bit of tier 12 gear. Both pieces of loot that dropped were DE'd. Ironically, DS was out for months after that, but it's still the prime example of garbage 10 man loot.

That was our first tier moving down from 25 to 10. It was quite a shock gear-wise.

Could you imagine the outcry from a 25 man guild that DE'd 100% of the loot from the first kill of the final boss?

[dennisdkramer]

If they just fixed 10man loot system to drop useful loot i wouldnt mind. Disenchating 50% of loot is not great from full clears just because it decided to drop mail spirit or str dodge/parry crap. Dont think we need more loot from bosses, we just need less wasted loot.

^this

Our vanq wearers are getting tier for their offspecs, and we've only had 2 conq pieces drop.
We've got two strength 2hs and only one who can use it
We've got tons of mail caster gear and no mail casters

Having run or helped run both 25 and 10m raid sizes, I can confidently say that 25m is not THAT much harder, but the loot distribution and gearing speed is fucking absurdly better. The reality is that if your guild is good enough to draw in 25 good players, 25m is not hard to recruit for. The problem is when your guild is mediocre, its extremely hard to maintain player quality.. but when 25m is easier and faster to gear, once you have those players you have a huge advantage over 10m

---------- Post added 2013-04-02 at 10:13 AM ----------

So not wanting any of the loot dropping even if you have people who can use them accounts for bad RNG now? Alright.

If people are purely after BiS then yeah, it most likely will take some time to get the loot one wants.

There is probably a higher chance of something dropping that a single person might want ina a 25 (more ppl who want it too), my point from the previous post wasn't meant in a "25 vs 10man" way, more in a "even in a 25 man we swap people in and out the raid in case there is something dropping no one in the raid can use"- kind of way, thus making it reasonable for a 10 man as well. Not that I want to feed my opinion down your throat, I'm happy with the current system either way, being in a 25

Yeah we try to do that in a 10m too... except its about a million timers harder to swap people in a 10m. tanks and healers (generally not reasonable to swap) make up half your raid, and you sometimes can't afford to lose a raid buff (hello 5% haste or lust) that often a single person provides.

[Vapo]

@ Tenaru: yea i think you got me wrong :P
@ shimitsu: similar experience from madness, 6 our 8 first loots from deathwing was the hunter bow... atleast we had 1 hunter...

[Deleted]

Fair enough Denniskramer, I can see how that might be annoying in 10's

[Deleted]

So reading until now .. people from 10-man complain that they get loot's but they dont have a user to use them ? Correct.
Point is that you choose to raid 10-man.
This is an Mmorpg.
This game atm has 11 Classes with 35 specs...
35 Spec's that each one use some specific gear and item's.

And the Funniest thing until now i read is .

About how you kill Council heroic, after hours of having bashed your head against it, do your nerd screams and find... oh... well, the tier token is cool, but... hey.. can anybody use that other item?
And why? Why dont you bring the some other class that may use it? You choose to raid as a specific format with some etc setup.
It's not the game fault that you choose to play with 80% representation with 2/3 classes. And overall with 5 classes from 11 classes.. This limit's the spec use and dumb more tha game...as.sadaf.

Whos fault that a dagger gonna drop but no rogue?
Whos fault is that Bow..xbow..gun.. gonna drop but no Hunter?
Who fault that xx tier token gonna drop but no x3 or x4 possible classes??? Dream Paragon 10-man with 4 druid's and 2 pala. More than Half of the raid is having only 2x Classes from 11 classes and 4/5 spec's from 35... Qq more?

Next thread? Mail item's to 10-man raiders by specific role..class..spec...etc...etc.

[Deleted]

Point is that you choose to raid 10-man.

I chose to raid with friends, I wish it was a 25 man guild.

As has been said before which people who clearly raid 25s are not paying attention to, we want to ability to either manually or automatically have loot that we can not use be blacklisted. Go ahead and put the same system in to 25s, I doubt it would make much difference, but to 10 mans, it's HUGE. No one is asking for high Thunderforge drop rates in 10 man, let that be your reward.

[Deleted]

I'm speaking from a top 20 world perspective, raiding 25m, and it's a clear advantage. I've hardcore raided 10 and 25 this expansion, and it's become very clear to me that the gear advantage in 25m is a significant difference in progression.

1) Would like to see some proof of your achievement claims. If you don't have it, don't bother to comment on it.
2) 10m and 25m progression don't compete with each other (people generally see it as 2 seperate ladders) which negates a minor discrepandy in fairness (such as T11 being easier on 25m and T12 being easier on 10m).
3) Raiding is so much more than hardcore raiding in a top X. This very issue we discuss counts not merely for a world first in a combined ladder, it also counts for the guilds which are currently not yet half done in ToT normal mode. They are raiders, they pay monthly fee, and any loot discrepancy affects them just as well.

---------- Post added 2013-04-02 at 05:07 PM ----------

Strong group composition is arguable at best. What will you do with all the strength gear with haste or crit on btw? One of the tank's offspec? Sure, 'cause there's tons of 1-tank fights. Also 3 main-spec healers and 1 off-spec healer?

This is why you need to be flexible in 10m raiding.

As for your questions: did you know holy paladins can have an off spec?

[Deleted]

This is why you need to be flexible in 10m raiding.

As for your questions: did you know holy paladins can have an off spec?

And how does Offspecc gear contribute to the raid? Yes, not at all, you got it! Maybe its fun ater progress or doing dailies faster, but it does not contribute to progress at all. At this state of the progression we shard the offset items if they aren't TF to get staff for some craftables. But still, you need 6-8 of them and 6-8 items for one useful item isnt a good trade at all.

[dennisdkramer]

And how does Offspecc gear contribute to the raid? Yes, not at all, you got it! Maybe its fun ater progress or doing dailies faster, but it does not contribute to progress at all. At this state of the progression we shard the offset items if they aren't TF to get staff for some craftables. But still, you need 6-8 of them and 6-8 items for one useful item isnt a good trade at all.

that and its only a matter of time until you're disenchanting heroic gear, and don't need any of the 522 craftables even if the rate of aquisition wasnt horrid.

This thread is full of angry 10m raiders and 25m raiders blinded to reality by how defensive they feel about their chosen raid size... just like every other thread that has ever existed about raid size, what a surprise.

25m have an advantage, its not a fucking argument its a fact. The argument is whether the advantage is a proper amount, or if it outweighs the difficulty it is meant to offset. The problem is that the measure of 25m's advantage, and logistic challenge, is completely different on different servers and at different levels of skill and progression. The 25m advantage is moderately fair for top end guilds, but is NOT AT ALL FAIR for 10m guilds of mid-to-low progression who see 25m guilds of similar progression 10 ilvls ahead of them because the loot is absurdly more abundant and evenly-distributed. That's not even taking into account which raid size is harder, because history has shown that forum baboons usually don't understand the argument well enough to comment.

[zloitima]

Many overlooked really good idea of OP, so that the bosses dropping tier tokens will still drop 2 pieces of other loot in 10man.
With 12 bosses in ToT it averages to 2.9 pieces per person in 10 man, and 2.88 per person in 25man.

[bals]

2) 10m and 25m progression don't compete with each other (people generally see it as 2 seperate ladders) which negates a minor discrepandy in fairness (such as T11 being easier on 25m and T12 being easier on 10m).

maybe, but server firsts achievements are only 10 man or 25man. they don't have separate achievements (would be easy for the 25man to steal the 10man achievement anyways)

[Dasani]

25man raids will always have an advantage over 10man raids because virtually no one wants to actually run 25-man, but the handful that do whine and cry that no one else wants to run it, so blizzard is forced to give them several advantages in gear over 10-man just so there will be enough 25man raiders to do anything. If it came down to playing how you wanted to play, 25-man raids would die out as they should really, since so few people are actually interested in doing them and WOULDNT do them without all the extra bonuses. It's pretty dumb.