10m Amount of loot issue.

[Deleted]

Maybe they should consider a loot system for 10 mans were 4 itens drop from the boss but you cna only loot 2 of them, and you need ot pick wich ones you want and leave the other 2 there, I know this has the potential to generate insane amounts of loot dramma but if your raid has problems acepting loot distrinution and dont know how to be team players you should realy consider a new roster, one filled with ppl that want to play as a team rather tham 10 individual guys seeking loot.

They could also just implement something like a "Don't need" button for raid leaders that you can press once for each item dropped initially and it causes a new item to pop up (if that's still not needed that's bad luck but atleast it gave you the chance for something useful to pop up).

Something like "drawing new cards at the start of a card game", you still don't know if your new cards are better but you're willing to take the chances.

[Deleted]

qqqqqqqqqq. it's designed to be unfair to 'save' 25m raiding. Always has been. As long as they don't fuckup the actual difficulty of 10/25 ala maloriak/al akir/v&t I don't really care. Our raid has gone from 490avg ilvl to 515 since ToT started, and we're 10m and only 2hc.

I'm far more annoyed that 25m is just too faceroll for healers compared to 10 during progress.

[cFortyfive]

By your logic I should never raid 10 mans ever,m cause Im a rogue and my loot spot has to be covered by an agility leather tank on every 10 man team on the planet

Sure because you need to have exactly the same pieces in every slot of your gear.

[DakonBlackblade]

They could also just implement something like a "Don't need" button for raid leaders that you can press once for each item dropped initially and it causes a new item to pop up (if that's still not needed that's bad luck but atleast it gave you the chance for something useful to pop up).

Something like "drawing new cards at the start of a card game", you still don't know if your new cards are better but you're willing to take the chances.

You know I like this idea better tham my original one, would be a pretty cool feature to have and has less potential to generate loot drama.

Sure because you need to have exactly the same pieces in every slot of your gear.

Hey Im just comenting on someones optmal 10 man team setup and how its an easy setup to achiev that everyone who runs 10 mans should have. he was the one who said you shouldnt bring another leather agi into the party cause you want an leather agi tnak and a plate one to optmise your loot.

[Deleted]

Ooooooooooooooooooooooor... just make 25 mans drop 5 pieces of gear, instead of 6, that would make the ratio of loot 2.5:1

You can thank me later


(In honesty I think the system is fine as it is)

[DakonBlackblade]

Ooooooooooooooooooooooor... just make 25 mans drop 5 pieces of gear, instead of 6, that would make the ratio of loot 2.5:1

You can thank me later


(In honesty I think the system is fine as it is)

For 25 mans, its screwed up for 10s tough, a boss with a 20 iten loot table only dropping 2 itens is ridiculous, its not very unlikely to go like 6 months and not see 1 specific iten form this 20 itens table drop at all, even once (its an 7.4%% chance actualy, its a considerable high chance if you consider the amount of 10 man guilds raiding).

[Drobo]

Can anyone confirm a trash drop in 10 man? WE were 12/12 in this first week and have cleared each week since, and haven't seen one trash drop. Hopefully it's just RNG

[Sonnillon]

Stay on topic. This is not "10 vs 25 - which is better" thread, but about how should Blizzard fix the amount of loot handed out in 25 or 10 man raids.

[Royalite]

I guess the 90% of the ten man raiding population just won't be happy until it kills 100% of the 25m raiding population. The numbers speak for themselves.

If an increase in thunderforge gear kills of ten mans (which by all accounts not even close to happening) than the ten man raiding complaints will have some validity. Currently 25man raiding is a small percentage of the raiding guilds and thunderforge is only barely slowly the bleeding of 25m raiding death.

[Deleted]

Ooooooooooooooooooooooor... just make 25 mans drop 5 pieces of gear, instead of 6, that would make the ratio of loot 2.5:1

You can thank me later


(In honesty I think the system is fine as it is)

Ofc the system is fine at it is. I as a 10m raider don't need more loot than 25s. Its okay for me that they get more loot than my guild and Iam with you that I don't think only 10s should get a "don't need" button or something similar, because the rng can also spit on you on 25s, but I think my idea posted before would help both sizes.

Blizz should just introduce the feature that only items that have a need for main+offspecc can drop.
This way both 10s and 25s are happy and more loot gets distributed instead of sharded.

You can't say only mainspeccs because some guys use their offspeccs and they need the gear, but if there is only one pala with prot ms and retri os, no int plate should drop.

[DakonBlackblade]

Can anyone confirm a trash drop in 10 man? WE were 12/12 in this first week and have cleared each week since, and haven't seen one trash drop. Hopefully it's just RNG

Drop rate is abysmall, not sur eif just for 10s tough I think its abysmall across the board. Only have 1 trash drop ins this 4 weeks a tank belt from one of the trash mobs before council.

[bclumas]

Lets see it like this. Lets say thet on each kill of ceratian boss he will drop 2 items that are needed for someone in raid. So to gear ppl from that boss on a pefect day/month yu need to kill him 5x, right, since 5 x 2 = 10? Same is with 25man, considering that it dropps 6 items you cant kill him 4 times since 4 x 6 = 24, you need to kill him 5 times to gear all 25ppl from same boss. But considering that chance for a specific item to drop on 10man is same as on 25man then i dont see your problem there with paladin loot. Well let say that DE those items, thats about 40-50k gold if you sell them now, and that gold goes into guild bank for reapir, flasks and stuff like that...

Let's see it like this:

First of all, I don't know why you're using the number 5 for 10-man calculations, but 4 for 25-man. If we were to use 5 for both, then you'd see that over a 5 week period the 10-man guild would see exactly 10 items drop whereas the 25-man counterpart would see 30. Now, take into consideration a boss such as Jin'rokh the Breaker who has a loot table of 21 items. In this situation it would take a 10-man guild 11 weeks of clearing to have the CHANCE at seeing every single item drop exactly once. On the other hand, it is possible (read: not plausible) that 25-man guilds have already seen every drop at least once in one-third the amount of time. In the same 11 weeks of raiding, a 25-man guild would see 66 total items against the 10-man guild's 22. In a typical 10-man setup, only roughly one-half to two-thirds of that is likely to be worthwhile at any given time. There is no telling if the "valuable" loot will drop in the first 6 weeks of killing the boss or the last 5. On the other hand, in the shorter 4 week window (as described above would be the minimum required for all of his loot to have a chance of dropping at least once), the likelihood of any item being disenchanted in a 25-man guild is significantly less.

Finally, if you're trying to convince me that our unlucky drop rates have somehow translated into progression raiding because we can sell our disenchanting mats and therefore have feasts, flasks, and repairs, then I seriously need you to tell me how much raiding you actually do. There is no serious (hell, even semi-serious) guild that shows up to raid without having the proper items prepared. I have a combination of 480 Pandaren and Great Pandaren Feasts in my bags to drop for the raid, and none of which came from guild monies or guild donations. I received none of it through any benefit I lost when the Plate with Intellect gear dropped for 33% of our final loot the other night. That argument makes no sense whatsoever.

[Elim Garak]

Trash drops drop from coins on any boss.

[Sonnillon]

We've gotten boots so far from the trash, along a sand pet (from the adds before Council). So they seem to be there.
We'll see how much and if any trash drops we get from the trash clear before Mageara, but I guess it is just RNG, like with DEing 2 pieces of loot from a boss (10-man raid)

[DakonBlackblade]

Trash drops drop from coins on any boss.

Realy ? that makes things even worse how in the world will I ever get a dagger this tier... Im gona have to be bleessed by the Randomness Gods and get it to actualy drop form Megaera or Iron Quon...

[Xami]

Ooooooooooooooooooooooor... just make 25 mans drop 5 pieces of gear, instead of 6, that would make the ratio of loot 2.5:1

You can thank me later


(In honesty I think the system is fine as it is)

Methematically speaking, even with this system 25mans will stil gear up faster. Someone did a simulation on this way back around FL, but cba to dig that thread up...

[clevin]

So, I'm sure other 10 man guilds have felt the same way, but now there is proof.

Look at the huge discrepancy between 10m and 25m loot. Average ilvl from 25m is much higher than average ilvl from 10m. It's a fact.

This should be looked into, and I feel that I have a pretty simple solution.

6 pieces of loot drop off a 25m boss. 2 drop off of a 10m. That is a 3:1 ratio, when the raid size is a 2.5:1

This is easily fixed by any bosses that drop tier, still drop two other pieces of loot, and tier. Therefore, making 3 pieces of loot drop off of bosses that have tier in 10m.

If you compare them, you can see it in this link

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild_ilv...ting.tier15_10

You may have to go to the individuals guilds to see comparisons between 10m and 25m, but still, the difference is clear, and there should be a solution to fix this.

Thoughts?

IT's been like this since Wrath (end of Wrath). And number of items!= ilevel of items.

[Royalite]

You guys do know 25 man raiding guilds don't just have 25 raiders. Our bench is 5-10 people on certain nights. There is no way we could survive just gearing 25 raiders. So people compare 25 to ten man drops... well start adding in the bench which is required for 25mans.

[Deleted]

You guys do know 25 man raiding guilds don't just have 25 raiders. Our bench is 5-10 people on certain nights. There is no way we could survive just gearing 25 raiders. So people compare 25 to ten man drops... well start adding in the bench which is required for 25mans.

And we are 15 ppl for a 10m raid to distribute the loot perfectly, where is the problem you trying to show?

[Deleted]

25 man gets more thunderforged items and not so much loot is wasted and disenchanted as in 10 man. As a 10 man raider i dont see any problem with this. If you dont like it then make a 25 man guild and you will get headaches to lead it and deal with all the drama. Be happy that its not like in wrath where 10 man guilds got worse ilvl gear than 25m. Im very happy with the model we have now in wow.

I've raided 40 and 25 mans for atleast 5 years since release (dropped down to 10mans since Firelands HC).
The logistical effort 25man officers have to do more than 10man officers does most certainly not justify the potential loot discrepancy.


Even ignoring the fact that 10mans disenchant proportionally more loot than 25, consider this:
10 mans get 2 items for 10 people (0.2 items per person) while 25 mans get 6 items for 25 people (0.24 items per person, or 20% more than 10s)
As more loot drops, the number of Thunderforged items as a whole increases (not the chance / percentage, but the actual result)


Furthermore: As if more Thunderforged loot through more raw loot isn't enough already, 25s also have a higher chance to get TF loot. Taking the sample size from WoWProgress (Link) and considering 10% vs. 25% chances of Thunderforged loot dropping basically means:
25 Mans get 20% more loot per person and 15% increased chance of TF loot comparing to 10mans, which overall equates to 38% (1.2 * 1.15 = 1.38) higher itemlevel loot. Take the fact that 10mans disenchant proportionally more loot than 25mans and you're easily looking at 50% increased gearing for 25mans than 10mans. (And this just assumed that only 10% of the loot gets disenchanted in 10mans... which in truth is probably higher)




Ofcourse, number-crunching doesn't help anyone and 25mans needed a little more incentive than 10mans, and we all know that the 1 bonus item pre-5.2 obviously wasn't enough so the increased TF rate is probably justified (maybe not as much as 25% vs. 10%... 15% vs. 10% would have been fine I think). As others have said, it's not the loot rules between 25s and 10s that are the problem, it's the diversity of loot compared to the raid size (having 6-7 useful items in a loot table as huge as 25+ items and pulling only 2 out each week plain sucks, there's no denying).

---------- Post added 2013-04-01 at 06:31 PM ----------

You guys do know 25 man raiding guilds don't just have 25 raiders. Our bench is 5-10 people on certain nights. There is no way we could survive just gearing 25 raiders. So people compare 25 to ten man drops... well start adding in the bench which is required for 25mans.

The average 10men rosters are probably 50% of the actual raid size (pool of 15 players for 10s). You're telling me the average 25men guild has 37-38 people in their roster?