Preferences in 25ppl.

[Bloodfire]

A little bit of hypothetical situation.
You have about to 4-5 people who are able to do high damage but always keep wiping on stupid situations (like not getting out of Jinrokh's puddle in time).
And you have the same amount who deals less dps but never wipes on such idiotic situations.
Which would you prefer?

[Swaggah]

People that never wipes

[Deleted]

the people who dont wipe, unless you mean they are doing 10k dpsor something stupid like that. if its just a bit lower dps i would rather have people who wont die, pointless doing all that dps if you're going to spend most the fight dead.

[alucardtnuoc]

Dead dps do no dps.

[Deleted]

Dead DPS is no DPS.

Spacial awareness is much preferred over "derp derp im a meter whore who cant do anything else but polish my epeen" DPS who die.

[Bloodfire]

the people who dont wipe, unless you mean they are doing 10k dpsor something stupid like that. if its just a bit lower dps i would rather have people who wont die, pointless doing all that dps if you're going to spend most the fight dead.

Nah, ofc not, even a blind can do 10k, just some people have low PC and unable to raid in 25 as good as in 10, that's the case.

[traen]

Is it spherical raid in vacuum? Where did you found people who do bad dps and never wipe?

Dps is not a rocket science. After 2-3 years of playing your class(and that is like the only way you can learn not to fail) its impossible to be not able to show good dps numbers.

[Bloodfire]

Is it spherical raid in vacuum? Where did you found people who do bad dps and never wipe?

Well, you're looking at one .

[traen]

Well, you're looking at one .

I don't believe you tbh. Such people just don't exist. If you have one - just tell them to spend few days on training dummy and point to obvious fails in their rotation.

What's better - dps or reliability?

For hardcore 25m raiding its definitely dps.
You take all the best dps that you can find and then just kick the ones that are failing too often.

Why?
Because higher dps is pretty much the same as overgear. And overgear REALLY makes the difference.
When you have to push the boss through his burst phase you have two choices: invent some crazy strategy to survive for 2 additional minutes or just burst this bastard down.

Remember old bosses of the same content? Tough, dodgy bosses you had so many wipes on with "raid that never fails".
Just in 6 month a raid of total noobs comes and kills it right away. Why? Because they had 30% more dps. They pushed him through all the bad phases, they took 1-2 more healers and through all the damage.
Its just ridiculous how easy bosses become in overgear. Just a shadow of the real ones.

So yeah. We gear up as much people as we can, we take the best dps, and if someone fails too much we just replace him. If someone fails over and over he will lose dkp, he won't be taken to raid, he won't get gear and in the end would be kicked from guild.
So for good hardcore guild the situation you described is absolutely unrealistic.
So on the start of new content we take best geared people doing best dps and basically zerg most of the bosses.

With tough bosses for both good or bad raids it works basically in the same way: you do as much wipes as needed for a perfect pull. After 50, 100, 900 wipes (my personal record, say hello to ragnaros) even worst players don't fail on stupid things and even worst dps finally push the needed number.

But in most cases boss is just unkillable without proper dps, so you have no choice, you MUST take the best dps or the boss would never die. You have to take op classes even if they are played by dummies.

So yeah, for a spherical raid in vacuum I would take a raid that is doing better dps.
You can wipe few hundreds of times and in the end the boss will fall. Guaranteed.
But without required raid dps you'll wipe over and over and over again and would never kill it.

If you are in casual guild and every wipe causes a lot of drama, if you you killing normal mode bosses and dps is not an issue, reliable players would be better.

[Deleted]

Dps is not a rocket science. After 2-3 years of playing your class(and that is like the only way you can learn not to fail) its impossible to be not able to show good dps numbers.

Oh, you would be surprised what some people can (not) do even after playing their class since Vanilla :O. Also playing a class for 1-2 weeks with the right attitude and mind set will easily enable you to max dps and react correctly to different situations. It's really bring the player, not the time-investment on this one.

OT: the ones who do not wipe really. Especially on Jinrokh, dps requirements are not that hard (compared to the rest of the raid).

[Woobels]

I would prefer players who are capable of high damage + not dying.
Interestingly enough it's usually the players who do very well on damage who also don't die, because they are fully aware of the silly 'dead dps doesn't do dps' thing.

In addition, if someone who usually does top DPS for his class fucks up I'll probably care less then when someone who does mediocre DPS messes up.

[ZakAtack]

As long as the damage isn't so bad that you're hitting the enrage timer, why wouldn't you take the player who doesn't wipe? In my opinion, it takes a lot more skill to do damage while managing mechanics than it does to ignore everything and meter whore it up and then die to stupid shit.

Now if the OP changes it to "tops meters and dies to everything" versus "doesn't die to mechanics but does terrible/unviable dps" then it's a more legitimate argument.

As it stands, dead dps is no dps. Besides, I haven't met too many meter toppers who don't just turn out to be loot whores who love waving their epeen around and think they're way better than they are. Not saying they're all like that, just my limited experience with them.

[Deleted]

Usually the people who never die to stupid shit are also the ones with highest DPS unless it means tunneling the boss like on Horridon. Your question is too hypothetical

[DarkPhoenix]

High DPSers that wipe to stupid stuff.

Reasoning: It's much easier to teach raid awareness than to perfect another players rotation and cooldown use.

The High DPS may lose a couple of K-DPS but they will eventually be able to stop dieing to dumb stuff.

[Jeremypwnz]

I'm a meter whore (25m N-Horridon padding like a boss, rank 1 by 17k until someone beat me like 2 hours later.. :/ ), and I rarely ever die to derps, auto ran into Iron Qon earlier today while eating.

Edit: wait. I was supposed to go somewhere with this. Although I don't mind lower dps who don't die to derps or continuous mistakes, I would rather have higher dps who have half a brain and can realize a mistake or how to avoid deaths within a few attempts.

[Bloodfire]

I don't believe you tbh. Such people just don't exist. If you have one - just tell them to spend few days on training dummy and point to obvious fails in their rotation.

What's better - dps or reliability?

For hardcore 25m raiding its definitely dps.
You take all the best dps that you can find and then just kick the ones that are failing too often.

Why?
Because higher dps is pretty much the same as overgear. And overgear REALLY makes the difference.
When you have to push the boss through his burst phase you have two choices: invent some crazy strategy to survive for 2 additional minutes or just burst this bastard down.

Remember old bosses of the same content? Tough, dodgy bosses you had so many wipes on with "raid that never fails".
Just in 6 month a raid of total noobs comes and kills it right away. Why? Because they had 30% more dps. They pushed him through all the bad phases, they took 1-2 more healers and through all the damage.
Its just ridiculous how easy bosses become in overgear. Just a shadow of the real ones.

So yeah. We gear up as much people as we can, we take the best dps, and if someone fails too much we just replace him. If someone fails over and over he will lose dkp, he won't be taken to raid, he won't get gear and in the end would be kicked from guild.
So for good hardcore guild the situation you described is absolutely unrealistic.
So on the start of new content we take best geared people doing best dps and basically zerg most of the bosses.

With tough bosses for both good or bad raids it works basically in the same way: you do as much wipes as needed for a perfect pull. After 50, 100, 900 wipes (my personal record, say hello to ragnaros) even worst players don't fail on stupid things and even worst dps finally push the needed number.

But in most cases boss is just unkillable without proper dps, so you have no choice, you MUST take the best dps or the boss would never die. You have to take op classes even if they are played by dummies.

So yeah, for a spherical raid in vacuum I would take a raid that is doing better dps.
You can wipe few hundreds of times and in the end the boss will fall. Guaranteed.
But without required raid dps you'll wipe over and over and over again and would never kill it.

If you are in casual guild and every wipe causes a lot of drama, if you you killing normal mode bosses and dps is not an issue, reliable players would be better.

The situation was some sort of this:
Smb keeps falling on Storm phase on Jinrokh, they're pointing at healers who can't save their asses.
When I'm Telling to push your own defensive CDs, I get an answer like this : "Why should I Spend my own GCD?"
Yes, it's likely better to die because of own stupidity.

And, 2nd question: Loot Council or EPGP is more effecient?

[Téuntjûh]

It's simple, look at the total damage done on that boss, not @ dps.
If the super dps die halfway the fight, but still did more damage in total then the people who stayed alive, I would kick those low dps who know how to move first!

[Hypasonic]

The situation was some sort of this:
Smb keeps falling on Storm phase on Jinrokh, they're pointing at healers who can't save their asses.
When I'm Telling to push your own defensive CDs, I get an answer like this : "Why should I Spend my own GCD?"
Yes, it's likely better to die because of own stupidity.

And, 2nd question: Loot Council or EPGP is more effecient?

You obviously need to replace people like that, for 25 man and depending on how serious you are I would probably go with epgp, we use loot council but we are a 10 man guild.

[Ninotchka]

I prefer someone who is willing to take the steps to improve themselves and who will act for the good of the group as a whole.

If I was just answering your first post, it would be a harder decision. But when you included the information 'refuses to use personal cooldowns because that impacts their personal dps' you make the right decision crystal clear.

Divas like that will continue to be problems. Dump them until they're mature enough to wear big girl pants.