Vol'jin on, "Why should we (Alliance) help you?" (5.3 spoilers)

[Flaks]

All the Alliance has to do is wait and Vol'jin will see first hand how empty his threats are. He is dumb to even make them.

EJL

Wrong. If the Alliance waits, Vol'jin waits. And Garrosh obliterates the Alliance. If Vol'jin DOESN'T wait, Garrosh destroys the good Horde and then proceeds to annihilate the Alliance right after.

Garrosh WILL be that freaking strong that he can take on either faction if they don't team up.

People also seem to be forgetting that killing Trolls is secondary to removing the Alliance from the face of the planet for Garrosh.

[KrakHed]

Wrong. If the Alliance waits, Vol'jin waits. And Garrosh obliterates the Alliance. If Vol'jin DOESN'T wait, Garrosh destroys the good Horde and then proceeds to annihilate the Alliance right after.

Garrosh WILL be that freaking strong that he can take on either faction if they don't team up.

People also seem to be forgetting that killing Trolls is secondary to removing the Alliance from the face of the planet for Garrosh.

I believe the Orcs under Garrosh have referred to Vol'jin as a distraction from their real foe already.

And if we need to know what the Alliance would lose from just sitting back and letting the Trolls and Orcs fight without interfering or making a pact with the rebellion...

Well, they lose an allied force which not only has a foothold and vital intelligence they lack. Also, the Alliance won't have any force to hold the Harbor for them while they come in for a landing. This means that quite a lot more ships would likely be lost at sea even if Garrosh's Horde was weakened a bit.

But by giving a little assistance they can shift the balance enough to have Garrosh's Horde weakened even further at little cost to the Alliance while actually minimizing their own casualties.

[bohapjut]

World superpowers provide aid for revolutionaries in real life as well instead of waiting it out then coming in and mopping up.

[PizzaSHARK]

The Alliance apparently has to, since they need to take the higher road here. If the Horde cannot do the same, then they are hardly honoring the Alliance's decision to leave the Horde alone. It would be quite a dishonor to the entire Horde if they went to war with the Alliance after the siege if Varian and his troops just walk away from Orgrimmar with no strings attached. Not many would make such a decision and that should be respected in the highest regard if you ask me.

Who said Varian's just going to walk away?

[Gimli]

Not going to lie, this new patch is making me wish I'd rolled a Horde.

[Haven]

World superpowers provide aid for revolutionaries in real life as well instead of waiting it out then coming in and mopping up.

It's more like sponsoring a renegade radical group so that it does the dirty job and becomes a puppet for the donating superpower later. Everything aims at profit.

Who said Varian's just going to walk away?

The realities of this game and Varian's newly-established pathological nobility. All his hatred towards the Horde that he had since Wrath does not exist anymore because writers said so, derp.

[Mormolyce]

And? In the past the Alliance was heavily favored ,until Wc3 hit and the established order of the planet was torn apart. Now the horde shines more, but who is to say that will always be like that, since they rooted for the other team in the past.

Alliance was favored until WC3? Sure. Maybe that's because Alliance were written as the good guys and Horde as the bad guys, and the good guys needed to win in the end.

This is complete rubbish, the canon ending of Warcraft 1 was total Horde victory and the destruction of the nation of Azeroth (now called Stormwind). Warcraft 2 took parts of both campaigns as canon, roughly speaking the Horde is winning for the first half but is ultimately defeated and driven back to the Dark Portal, which is destroyed. Warcraft 3 had the remaining Orcs fleeing across the ocean to escape the Legion while the northern Alliance kingdoms were annihilated by the Scourge. Ultimately Jaina and Thrall's forces joined up with the Night Elves to destroy Archimonde, of course.

And then in the expansion, the "Human" campaign was actually Blood Elves and Naga, and there wasn't even a proper Orc campaign. Just an RPG-like set of maps that were added later and all took place local to Durotar.

This whole discussion over who is "favored" is stupid. The story has ups and downs for both factions and it isn't supposed to be equal all the time, nor should it be. That would be totally boring.

Didn't the Alliance pretty much break apart in WC 3, because of the Scourge invasion and the coming of the Legion (it was pretty much only the Human Alliance back then with some aid from Gnomes and Dwarves)? I mean, the current Alliance is pretty much a reformed version that has existed only in World of Warcraft since Classic.

Technically a lot of the Alliance broke up after the end of the Second War. Warcraft 3 just finished off the two remaining major northern Human kingdoms - Lordaeron and Dalaran. And of course, Silvermoon. But yes, the "Alliance of Stormwind" is quite a different political entity than the old "Alliance of Lordaeron".

---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 06:27 AM ----------

It's more like sponsoring a renegade radical group so that it does the dirty job and becomes a puppet for the donating superpower later. Everything aims at profit.

Although a lot of the time they don't end up making very good puppets. Like the Taliban.

[Talen]

Probably worth bearing in mind that the Alliance player is there on a mission from his majesty's secret service to, explicitly, befriend the Darkspear tribe. This same player being stupid enough to run his or her mouth off to the tribe's chieftain is kind of asking for a reprisal, not to mention how it's endangering the reason the player's there in the first place.

That's the part thats wrong. Why use that as the excuse? The Alliance...Varian...has ZERO reason to do this. No reason to befriend the Darkspear at all.

NONE.

He wants to have both sides fight it out? Why not do so then? He doesn't need to ally with either side. He doesn't need to help. He doesn't need Vol'jins permission to take part either. He could send in a small elite team of SI:7 agents, set up base at Tirasgaarde and give small missions agsinst BOTH sides. Or even use that team to help.

And the players response is quite a valid one. Especially given EVERYTHING Vol'jin and his people have done. Vol'jins response is not only abrasive (I like the anaolgy of telling Holocaust jokes to a Jew) - it's also idiotic. Vol'jin doesn't have the luxury of sitting back and letting his enemies fight it out. Varian does. That Vol'jin even make the comment is poor characterisation. The entire set up emphasises the Alliances second rate development and rubbishes Vol'jins strategical and diplomatic capability for the sake of a cool one liner.

EJL

[Haven]

Although a lot of the time they don't end up making very good puppets. Like the Taliban.

Yeah. Turns out that some men just want to see the world burn more than they want money.

That's the part thats wrong. Why use that as the excuse? The Alliance...Varian...has ZERO reason to do this. No reason to befriend the Darkspear at all.

NONE.

He wants to have both sides fight it out? Why not do so then? He doesn't need to ally with either side. He doesn't need to help. He doesn't need Vol'jins permission to take part either. He could send in a small elite team of SI:7 agents, set up base at Tirasgaarde and give small missions agsinst BOTH sides. Or even use that team to help.

Well, he may sit and watch Garrosh do his Sha supersoldier thing and wipe the Alliance out. Or the new manabomb. Or the plague - not so improbable after the manabomb. Garry doesn't have the moral brakes that could make him care about humanity (as a concept, not race) or collateral damage.

[Combatbutler]

That's the part thats wrong. Why use that as the excuse? The Alliance...Varian...has ZERO reason to do this. No reason to befriend the Darkspear at all.

NONE.

He is not befriending them, have you read his letter? He is using them, that is all.

[Deleted]

This is complete rubbish, the canon ending of Warcraft 1 was total Horde victory and the destruction of the nation of Azeroth (now called Stormwind). Warcraft 2 took parts of both campaigns as canon, roughly speaking the Horde is winning for the first half but is ultimately defeated and driven back to the Dark Portal, which is destroyed. Warcraft 3 had the remaining Orcs fleeing across the ocean to escape the Legion while the northern Alliance kingdoms were annihilated by the Scourge. Ultimately Jaina and Thrall's forces joined up with the Night Elves to destroy Archimonde, of course.

And then in the expansion, the "Human" campaign was actually Blood Elves and Naga, and there wasn't even a proper Orc campaign. Just an RPG-like set of maps that were added later and all took place local to Durotar.

This whole discussion over who is "favored" is stupid. The story has ups and downs for both factions and it isn't supposed to be equal all the time, nor should it be. That would be totally boring.

Yeah the statement that Alliance was favored until WC3 is a bit exaggerated, and it didn't come from me. Alliance suffered a lot of losses until they won at the end of WC2. You can't really call that "being favored". I was just pointing out why the canon ending of WC2 is the humans triumphing and the orcs being defeated, which is because WC1 and WC2 together tell the story about how the orcs attack Azeroth and the humans beat back the attackers. It was a typical happy ending. The threat has been dealt with.

The question which faction is being favored however is not stupid. They favor the Horde, it's clear to see.

[khalltusk]

Yeah the statement that Alliance was favored until WC3 is a bit exaggerated, and it didn't come from me. Alliance suffered a lot of losses until they won at the end of WC2. You can't really call that "being favored". I was just pointing out why the canon ending of WC2 is the humans triumphing and the orcs being defeated, which is because WC1 and WC2 together tell the story about how the orcs attack Azeroth and the humans beat back the attackers. It was a typical happy ending. The threat has been dealt with.

The question which faction is being favored however is not stupid. They favor the Horde, it's clear to see.

They might well do, but as a horde player I have mixed feelings (I'm sure many of us do). On the one hand we get rid of Garry. On the other we've had the alliance forces siege our capital city so we've had a lot of deaths on our forces. Horde killing Horde, Horde helping Alliance kill Horde. Then we have the uncertain future of what will happen post Siege.

I would rather we not siege my beloved Orgrimmar. But needs must.

[Deamon002]

They might well do, but as a horde player I have mixed feelings (I'm sure many of us do). On the one hand we get rid of Garry. On the other we've had the alliance forces siege our capital city so we've had a lot of deaths on our forces. Horde killing Horde, Horde helping Alliance kill Horde. Then we have the uncertain future of what will happen post Siege.

I would rather we not siege my beloved Orgrimmar. But needs must.

Nothing uncertain about it. Vol'jin (or someone else, but he's the most likely candidate) will take over as Warchief. Every atrocity the Horde has committed will be heaped on Garrosh's conveniently no longer attached head. The whole Alliance will inexplicably follow High Chin Varian's lead in just leaving Orgrimmar once Dipshit McAngryOrc is an ex-Warchief without demanding any concessions. All the losses the Horde took because of the civil war will magically vanish, because both sides 'must' be roughly equal.

Yes I'm being cynical, but can you honestly blame me? We've been handed the short end of the stick story-wise for year and, surprise surprise, the buildup to the Siege is playing pretty much exactly like the worst-case scenario's we predicted right after it was revealed the siege of Orgrimmar would be the climax of MoP.

Believe me, I want nothing more than to be wrong about this. I want Blizzard to surprise us all with a well-written storyline that makes sense and actually has consequences for the future of both sides. But so far, there's very little sign of that.

[khalltusk]

Nothing uncertain about it. Vol'jin (or someone else, but he's the most likely candidate) will take over as Warchief. Every atrocity the Horde has committed will be heaped on Garrosh's conveniently no longer attached head. The whole Alliance will inexplicably follow High Chin Varian's lead in just leaving Orgrimmar once Dipshit McAngryOrc is an ex-Warchief without demanding any concessions. All the losses the Horde took because of the civil war will magically vanish, because both sides 'must' be roughly equal.

Yes I'm being cynical, but can you honestly blame me? We've been handed the short end of the stick story-wise for year and, surprise surprise, the buildup to the Siege is playing pretty much exactly like the worst-case scenario's we predicted right after it was revealed the siege of Orgrimmar would be the climax of MoP.

Believe me, I want nothing more than to be wrong about this. I want Blizzard to surprise us all with a well-written storyline that makes sense and actually has consequences for the future of both sides. But so far, there's very little sign of that.

Me too I want to see the horde in some sort of moraleless lagoon. So we can rise up once again. I honestly hope in the next xpac we start off with the horde new quests showing us that we've taken a huge blow to our morale and everyones concerned about the horde future etc. Would be freaking awesome as a horde player to go out there and build our selves up again. Would be akin to going back to vanilla. where you start off with nothing known and forging a path for the horde!

[Deleted]

Me too I want to see the horde in some sort of moraleless lagoon. So we can rise up once again. I honestly hope in the next xpac we start off with the horde new quests showing us that we've taken a huge blow to our morale and everyones concerned about the horde future etc. Would be freaking awesome as a horde player to go out there and build our selves up again. Would be akin to going back to vanilla. where you start off with nothing known and forging a path for the horde!

And where did that path lead?

[khalltusk]

And where did that path lead?

To an awesome time? Vanilla - tbc story had us with some friction with the alliance but overall we worked with them. Only after the wrathgate did things sour. You can thank the rogue faction of undead and a dreadlord for that. As prior to that the alliance and horde combined their forces to assault the LK, the legion and the bugs!

[SodiumChloride]

Nothing uncertain about it. Vol'jin (or someone else, but he's the most likely candidate) will take over as Warchief. Every atrocity the Horde has committed will be heaped on Garrosh's conveniently no longer attached head. The whole Alliance will inexplicably follow High Chin Varian's lead in just leaving Orgrimmar once Dipshit McAngryOrc is an ex-Warchief without demanding any concessions. All the losses the Horde took because of the civil war will magically vanish, because both sides 'must' be roughly equal.

Yes I'm being cynical, but can you honestly blame me? We've been handed the short end of the stick story-wise for year and, surprise surprise, the buildup to the Siege is playing pretty much exactly like the worst-case scenario's we predicted right after it was revealed the siege of Orgrimmar would be the climax of MoP.

Believe me, I want nothing more than to be wrong about this. I want Blizzard to surprise us all with a well-written storyline that makes sense and actually has consequences for the future of both sides. But so far, there's very little sign of that.

You know, I never quite understood why Alliance players think their faction is getting screw story-wise.

Is it because they lost a few battles due to the sudden change in the Horde's leadership?

Seriously. What?

[Fayolynn]

To an awesome time? Vanilla - tbc story had us with some friction with the alliance but overall we worked with them. Only after the wrathgate did things sour. You can thank the rogue faction of undead and a dreadlord for that. As prior to that the alliance and horde combined their forces to assault the LK, the legion and the bugs!

Why does it always have to be a rogue faction causing drama. Why can't they just write the horde as a legitimate bad faction. >.<

Sorry if this question has already been answer, but the thread is rather long at this point. What is the motive for the Alliance to help Voljin? Why is the Alliance not sitting back while Horde tears itself apart so they can swoop in and crush them for good or at the very least using it as an opportunity to reclaim lost territory. I get the game play reasons, but story wise the Alliance's actions make zero sense.

You know, I never quite understood why Alliance players think their faction is getting screw story-wise.

Is it because they lost a few battles due to the sudden change in the Horde's leadership?

Seriously. What?

Its because Cataclysm and its shitty story telling. The Alliance saw no major victory in the war and often lost due to the power of plot contrivance, the one victory we did we were made to feel like monsters for and lore wise has been undone by the fall of Theramore. Combine that with the facts that Blizzard clearly ran out of time developing Alliance content because they focused on the Horde stuff first.

I play both factions btw, I acknowledge that Horde had the short end of the stick in Vanilla. That doesn't excuse what they did to the Alliance in Cataclysm.

[khalltusk]

Why does it always have to be a rogue faction causing drama. Why can't they just write the horde as a legitimate bad faction. >.<

Sorry if this question has already been answer, but the thread is rather long at this point. What is the motive for the Alliance to help Voljin? Why is the Alliance not sitting back while Horde tears itself apart so they can swoop in and crush them for good or at the very least using it as an opportunity to reclaim lost territory. I get the game play reasons, but story wise the Alliance's actions make zero sense.

As Wrathion stated a united Azeroth can hold off the threat. One with out the horde and alliance in it is doomed to fall. So the horde and alliance are needed but the war between them needs to stop.

The horde are not a bad faction, only the old horde in wc1 and 2 were like that. WC3 showed that the horde could take another path. Only now has the horde gone down the wrong road and its shown by the many factions that a lot of the horde doesnt like this path and thats why theres a rebellion.

[SodiumChloride]

Its because Cataclysm and its shitty story telling. The Alliance saw no major victory in the war and often lost due to the power of plot contrivance, the one victory we did we were made to feel like monsters for and lore wise has been undone by the fall of Theramore. Combine that with the facts that Blizzard clearly ran out of time developing Alliance content because they focused on the Horde stuff first.

So it is because you lost a few battles ... >.>

That's kind of a dumb reason to be pissed. Now I'm not denying that Blizzard's story telling is pretty horrible. If you were pissed at the poor plot (rather than because you didn't "win") I could understand that. But from your reactions, you just seem pissed that your faction didn't win enough, that it's OK if the plot is messed up as long as it's messed up in your favour ...

Anyway the change in land controlled is to balance out the levelling zones of both factions. Blizzard gave the Alliance too much land in vanilla. This is actually bad for both factions. Horde players will be bored to death looking at the same scenery for levels on end while Alliance would have to travel a ton. It's a headache for quest designers too. So don't take it to hard, it's just a "game design device" hamfisted into the already crappy plot.

In summary, I have to say, between unbelievable plot twists, sudden and poorly justified characterisation changes of major lore characters and the B-movie grade presentation (Seriously, is anyone directing the cutscenes and voice work?), Blizzard is doing a terrible job in bring the players along for the ride story-wise.