Vol'jin on, "Why should we (Alliance) help you?" (5.3 spoilers)

[Deleted]

I want your manbabies.

Why thank you!
When do you want to meet up?

[Deathgoose]

Probably worth bearing in mind that the Alliance player is there on a mission from his majesty's secret service to, explicitly, befriend the Darkspear tribe. This same player being stupid enough to run his or her mouth off to the tribe's chieftain is kind of asking for a reprisal, not to mention how it's endangering the reason the player's there in the first place.

As I said earlier, so long as it is simply an option for the Alliance player to mouth off and get that response, as opposed to being shoe horned into being a dick just so Vol'jin can look all cool for the cameras, then fair enough. As long as Alliance players have the option to go there as directed and are not necessarily forced to show their ass, then all is well.

[Romeothecat]

Sylvanas got as much story time as the Worgen race. Don't know about the Stonetalon Mountains, never levelled through there on any or my characters. Andorhal, same thing, it's to balance out the land.

Yeah except that the worgen were completely forgotten after their own starting zone. Sylvanas? Not so much.

[Deamon002]

Your point being? It would be the same if Darnassus was attacked Malfurion would intervene to defend it same as ANY other hero. Don't sprout BS. Thrall stated he can't do much about Garroshs war mongering then when he senses all those elementals being chained and realises Jaina is about to commit GENOCIDE he has NO choice but to stop her. Take your bloody biased sunglasses off for one moment to realize that. Before the Theramore battle he had no idea Garrosh would stoop to such a level. Afterwards he laments it and regrets putting him in charge but thinks he can't stop him alone. Then jaina goes insane...

Oh? The most powerful shaman (for some reason) on two worlds, the World Shaman, the Earth Warder, blablabla, is suddenly powerless to do anything about it? Sorry, they built him up way too much for me to swallow that he's suddenly incapable of intervening.

Jaina practically begged him to stop Garrosh before the fall of Theramore. He refused, not on the grounds that he couldn't, but because he was too busy healing the world. He might not have known about the mana bomb, but he knew damned well Garrosh would annihilate the place. Jaina flat out tells him that a lot of innocents will suffer if Garrosh isn't reined in, but to no avail. He only acts when it's Horde - or rather, Orcish - innocents that are on the chopping block. He might not have knowingly let Theramore be destroyed, but he certainly kept his eyes squeezes shut until it is too late to do anything and he doesn't have to make the hard choice anymore. His hands are not clean.

---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 04:23 PM ----------

And yet it set up conflict that has led to a untied Alliance that is so much more powerful than ever.

And yet we still 'need' the Darkspear Rebellion, despite being more powerful than ever and the Horde being divided. How's that logic you mentioned working out for you?

[khalltusk]

Oh? The most powerful shaman (for some reason) on two worlds, the World Shaman, the Earth Warder, blablabla, is suddenly powerless to do anything about it? Sorry, they built him up way too much for me to swallow that he's suddenly incapable of intervening.

Jaina practically begged him to stop Garrosh before the fall of Theramore. He refused, not on the grounds that he couldn't, but because he was too busy healing the world. He might not have known about the mana bomb, but he knew damned well Garrosh would annihilate the place. Jaina flat out tells him that a lot of innocents will suffer if Garrosh isn't reined in, but to no avail. He only acts when it's Horde - or rather, Orcish - innocents that are on the chopping block. He might not have knowingly let Theramore be destroyed, but he certainly kept his eyes squeezes shut until it is too late to do anything and he doesn't have to make the hard choice anymore. His hands are not clean.

You mean the same guy who no longer has those powers as it was temporarily given to him?? (as in the super earth wader world shaman hes just a shaman albeit powerful one)

The same guy who yes had to turn his back on horde vs alliance problems as he was busy dealing with healing the damage done to the planet (big deal you know). Only put a stop to it when he sense something FAR worse than theramore was going to happen.

True he should have done more to help before hand but could he realistically do against an entire army? As shown since Garrosh holds sway over much of the horde so he would have not made MUCH of an impact. But against jaina he can stop her or at least try. But against Garrosh and his legions of goons? not much alone. It has taken right up until now for him to try and do what he can.

He only went neutral to heal the world. He is still horde always will be.

[Deathgoose]

The typical Fallacy of every near-sighted fanboy on the net.

"We're not winning, this means the story is not centered on US"

I bet you complained when southshore was destroyed.

It's not the losses, it was HOW the losses happen. It even included some of the Alliance victories.

The worst of the losses was Andorhal. Phased battle. Alliance is winning, kicking their asses. Then the Valkyrs are fielded, and you go thin them out a bit, then the final big one! Victory, right? Nope, you go back to the quest NPC, and he's like, "LOL oh well, gg guis, guess we lost, gonna hearth now" and we're like o.O da fuq?!

So despite winning, Horde still canonically won that one.

The worst of the victories was Swamp of Sorrows. Another phased battle. Start off a stalemate, then the Alliance steadily pushes into Stonard and fully occupies the place. So when it's all turned in, victory, right? Nope, you go back to the quest NPC, the phasing is all gone, and Stonard is just fine meaning the "victory" had less impact on the world than a CoT dungeon.

After "winning", any evidence of actually winning is reset to the point where it was like nothing ever happened.

[khalltusk]

It's not the losses, it was HOW the losses happen. It even included some of the Alliance victories.

The worst of the losses was Andorhal. Phased battle. Alliance is winning, kicking their asses. Then the Valkyrs are fielded, and you go thin them out a bit, then the final big one! Victory, right? Nope, you go back to the quest NPC, and he's like, "LOL oh well, gg guis, guess we lost, gonna hearth now" and we're like o.O da fuq?!

So despite winning, Horde still canonically won that one.

The worst of the victories was Swamp of Sorrows. Another phased battle. Start off a stalemate, then the Alliance steadily pushes into Stonard and fully occupies the place. So when it's all turned in, victory, right? Nope, you go back to the quest NPC, the phasing is all gone, and Stonard is just fine meaning the "victory" had less impact on the world than a CoT dungeon.

After "winning", any evidence of actually winning is reset to the point where it was like nothing ever happened.

Not sure about andhorhal but for stonard, you can't quite destroy the place and offer horde players no quest hub afterwards. Although that can be changed by making a new camp somewhere etc. Still I think Cata was to show horde aggression and mop results in the culmination of all that.

And yet we still 'need' the Darkspear Rebellion, despite being more powerful than ever and the Horde being divided. How's that logic you mentioned working out for you?

You need them to make assaulting orgrimmar easier to do. You always take the path of least resistance. I don't know how people do not understand this.

[checking facts]

Yeah except that the worgen were completely forgotten after their own starting zone. Sylvanas? Not so much.

that's because the worgen are boring and completely forgettable. Sylvanas? Not so much.

[Deleted]

Vol'jin loves Alliance really. The fact that he hasn't turned them into frogs and boiled them in cauldron's and then skinned them to eat later means he's really trying to get along. He might be the next Warchief with this level of diplomacy, case fire rather than truce.

[Drithien]

I see nothing wrong with his response. Not enough context to be entirely certain of what is happening, but it seems to me as if part of the Alliance forces want to proceed either with their own plan and not Vol'jin's, or separate their efforts from those of the Horde rebels. And the reason seems to be the Alliance thinking that they will be in grave danger and wanting to decrease their casualties. That would be the reason why Vol'jin replies with "Hm! I save a lot a Darkspear lives wit' dis plan". To show the Alliance members that are doubting his plan, trying to play it safer for them, that he too is going to make some substantial sacrifices in this war.

As for the aggression, it is obviously a means to make them think harder of what it is that they are proposing, not him being condescending. He is exaggerating to push his point through. Not because he thinks he is better than them, or because he thinks he can besiege Orgrimmar without them, but to put them back in line, with what he perceives as the only realistic way to take down Garrosh.

As for the Alliance staying back and letting Vol'jin's and Garrosh's forces fight it out and then go in to kill the remnants of their forces: I think that it is quite obvious that the situation is such that it is not possible for such a tactic to work. Obviously Garrosh poses such a threat and in such a way that it will take the combined forces of the Alliance and the Horde rebels to stand a chance of taking him down. If only one of them goes up against Garrosh they are doomed to fail, miserably. And the next one to attack will find Garrosh's forces only slightly reduced, and in quite high spirits after such a total victory over their enemies. So they will be walking in to their own slaughter pretty much. And the Alliance can't afford to just stay neutral in this matter as well, because what Garrosh is doing seems to be threatening the entirety of Azeroth, and not just the Horde. So if they let the Horde rebels fail now, their time will come soon, and good luck with their diminished and fatigued forces, through years of campaigns (Ahn'Qiraj, Outland, Northrend, Pandaria, etc), standing any chance against a Sha-empowered Horde.

Their only chance to save themselves and Azeroth seems to be to attack and destroy Garrosh's Horde as soon as possible, before they get too powerful, and they can only do that by working together. That is what Vol'jins words let me understand.

[Deamon002]

You mean the same guy who no longer has those powers as it was temporarily given to him?? (as in the super earth wader world shaman hes just a shaman albeit powerful one)

The same guy who yes had to turn his back on horde vs alliance problems as he was busy dealing with healing the damage done to the planet (big deal you know). Only put a stop to it when he sense something FAR worse than theramore was going to happen.

Is it, though? Worse, I mean. It's been said that the mana bomb rips apart its victims in all worlds and timelines. I can't find the references, so I can't be certain, but is that really better than simple drowning? Was it because Orgrimmar simply had more people in it? Or was it because it happened to be his people?

See, there's the rub. No matter what might or might not have been going on in his head, his actions speak loud and clear: it's bad when someone does it to my people. Which is also how Jaina and the rest of the Alliance would see it.

True he should have done more to help before hand but could he realistically do against an entire army? As shown since Garrosh holds sway over much of the horde so he would have not made MUCH of an impact. But against jaina he can stop her or at least try. But against Garrosh and his legions of goons? not much alone. It has taken right up until now for him to try and do what he can.

I dunno. The army wasn't just Orcs. Tauren, Darkspear, Blood Elves. All races that were there too, and all under the command of people who aren't too fond of Garrosh, but deeply respect Thrall. And not all Orcs have forgotten him already, if the man who saved their race comes up to them, some at least will listen. He could have tried.

But that would either fail, or tear the Horde apart and cause a civil war (now why does that sound familiar? ). Which reinforces the impression that the interests of the Horde are more important to him than saving lives.

He only went neutral to heal the world. He is still horde always will be.

100% agreed. Which, to bring this thing full circle, is why saying that the Cataclysm storyline wasn't Horde-centric because Thrall quit as Warchief is ludicrous. (Yes, I know you didn't say that, but that's why it came up in the first place.)

[leaks]

There's still Alliance fans out there butthurt about Theramore? Good lord...

[khalltusk]

Is it, though? Worse, I mean. It's been said that the mana bomb rips apart its victims in all worlds and timelines. I can't find the references, so I can't be certain, but is that really better than simple drowning? Was it because Orgrimmar simply had more people in it? Or was it because it happened to be his people?

See, there's the rub. No matter what might or might not have been going on in his head, his actions speak loud and clear: it's bad when someone does it to my people. Which is also how Jaina and the rest of the Alliance would see it.



I dunno. The army wasn't just Orcs. Tauren, Darkspear, Blood Elves. All races that were there too, and all under the command of people who aren't too fond of Garrosh, but deeply respect Thrall. And not all Orcs have forgotten him already, if the man who saved their race comes up to them, some at least will listen. He could have tried.

But that would either fail, or tear the Horde apart and cause a civil war (now why does that sound familiar? ). Which reinforces the impression that the interests of the Horde are more important to him than saving lives.



100% agreed. Which, to bring this thing full circle, is why saying that the Cataclysm storyline wasn't Horde-centric because Thrall quit as Warchief is ludicrous. (Yes, I know you didn't say that, but that's why it came up in the first place.)

It was not horde centric because of Thrall, if anything it was Metzen Centric. I loved the parts where I got to play alongside malfurion and bring back the ancients. But it fell flat in other areas.

By far worse than theramore I mean the genocide of all the people of Orgrimmar. That population is HUGE far higher than Theramore. I was not discussing the terms of how they died. Just the scale of what would happen.

All the races were there but the Majority forces were the Orcs who pretty much were under Garrys control. The other races as much as they might respect thrall may or may not have done anything. It would have been cool though.

[Deathgoose]

There's still Alliance fans out there butthurt about Theramore? Good lord...

There's still Horde fans out there butthurt about Camp Taco? Good lord...

[khalltusk]

There's still Horde fans out there butthurt about Camp Taco? Good lord...

I miss that camp. It was the first place outside mulgore back in 2005 that my shaman saw and the place I saw someone for the first time on a mounted kodo. Now it lies in ruins :*(

[leaks]

There's still Horde fans out there butthurt about Camp Taco? Good lord...

I hope not cause that would be silly.

[Deamon002]

It was not horde centric because of Thrall, if anything it was Metzen Centric. I loved the parts where I got to play alongside malfurion and bring back the ancients. But it fell flat in other areas.

By far worse than theramore I mean the genocide of all the people of Orgrimmar. That population is HUGE far higher than Theramore. I was not discussing the terms of how they died. Just the scale of what would happen.

All the races were their but the Majority forces were the Orcs who pretty much were under Garrys control. The other races as much as they might respect thrall may or may not have done anything. It would have been cool though.

Thrall is basically Metzen's Author Avatar. There's a reason a lot of Cataclysm's plot reads like a crappy self-insertion fanfic.

I can't really bring myself to see the destruction of Orgrimmar as all that horrible, all things considered. Sure, a lot of people would have died, but it would end the war at a stroke. Total war is like that; you hit the enemy with everything you got, no mercy, if a civilian is an asset to the enemy, he's a legitimate target. If you don't, you die. And after Theramore, any pretense that this is anything but a total war is as dead as it is.

I don't expect many people to agree with me on that btw; I one of those people who think that the atomic bombings of WW2 were justified, since they prevented the need for an invasion of the Japanese home islands, which would have killed vastly more people.

But I'm getting (even more) off topic. My point is, Thrall simply comes out of the whole Theramore mess looking bad. He may hve had his reasons, but the fact remains he let Jaina's people die while rushing off to save his own. Bad PR.

[khalltusk]

Thrall is basically Metzen's Author Avatar. There's a reason a lot of Cataclysm's plot reads like a crappy self-insertion fanfic.

I can't really bring myself to see the destruction of Orgrimmar as all that horrible, all things considered. Sure, a lot of people would have died, but it would end the war at a stroke. Total war is like that; you hit the enemy with everything you got, no mercy, if a civilian is an asset to the enemy, he's a legitimate target. If you don't, you die. And after Theramore, any pretense that this is anything but a total war is as dead as it is.

I don't expect many people to agree with me on that btw; I one of those people who think that the atomic bombings of WW2 were justified, since they prevented the need for an invasion of the Japanese home islands, which would have killed vastly more people.

But I'm getting (even more) off topic. My point is, Thrall simply comes out of the whole Theramore mess looking bad. He may hve had his reasons, but the fact remains he let Jaina's people die while rushing off to save his own. Bad PR.

I do agree with the whole total war bit. If its total war then you bring it. The only issue is even Varian does not see it as total war. Only jaina and Garrosh (and garrys loyal tools do) their might be some others in the alliance who think along the same lines. But the main thing is if the guy in charge thinks its total war his forces treat it as such. The horde under Garrosh might treat it as total war but Varian has made it clear its not total war. Hes going to come in and do it his way.

Tides of war was a bit of a mess in some respects, but we needed that shove to get us into the whole war in pandaria bit. So I guess it served a purpose. Orgrimmar I would view as horrific if it was reduced to nothing as I am horde. But seeing Theramore go down left me conflicted. On the one hand its a legit military target as it was a staging post for the alliance forces in kalimdor. But the manner in which he blew it up was terrible, I can respect the fact he wanted to cause as much damage to the alliance military as possible though. On the other hand Theramore was a place which I saw a lot of in wow and though and was quite fond of it.

[IronArms]

He's not going to turn into a Garrosh 2.0 ... that is more of an attitude when he doesn't like someone elses plan for such a serious event. Though that is a bit wittier than before.

[Deamon002]

I do agree with the whole total war bit. If its total war then you bring it. The only issue is even Varian does not see it as total war. Only jaina and Garrosh (and garrys loyal tools do) their might be some others in the alliance who think along the same lines. But the main thing is if the guy in charge thinks its total war his forces treat it as such. The horde under Garrosh might treat it as total war but Varian has made it clear its not total war. Hes going to come in and do it his way.

Tides of war was a bit of a mess in some respects, but we needed that shove to get us into the whole war in pandaria bit. So I guess it served a purpose. Orgrimmar I would view as horrific if it was reduced to nothing as I am horde. But seeing Theramore go down left me conflicted. On the one hand its a legit military target as it was a staging post for the alliance forces in kalimdor. But the manner in which he blew it up was terrible, I can respect the fact he wanted to cause as much damage to the alliance military as possible though. On the other hand Theramore was a place which I saw a lot of in wow and though and was quite fond of it.

If a staging post is a legitimate military target, wouldn't the enemy's nervous center be even more so?

Fair enough about Varian, but I would say that not even Jaina sees it as total war... at least not after Tides of War. If she did, she wouldn't have continued to try to make Dalaran into a place of peace. Even after the Sunreavers' betrayal she didn't slaughter them wholesale, but dumped them in the Violet Hold. That's far better than the Horde would give its enemies. She no longer believes peace is possible with Garrosh's Horde, but she's not going to the Dalaran Vaults and grab the Focusing Iris for Tsunami Part Deux either.