Holy mother 10man nerf

[Deleted]

ToT normal is worse than most of the firelands heroics.

i might frame this one it is such a gloriously insane statement ? Baleroc HC ? Ryolith HC ? Domo HC ? Dafuq man, harder than horridon normal ? wow

EDIT : sry here i made a grammativcal mistake, i meant
Baleroc HC ? Ryolith HC ? Domo HC ? Dafuq man, easier than horridon normal ? wow

my bad for the confusion

[Glorious Leader]

i might frame this one it is such a gloriously insane statement ? Baleroc HC ? Ryolith HC ? Domo HC ? Dafuq man, harder than horridon normal ? wow

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...er/Dhcp/simple Only one missing is Hdomo and Hrag. Hdomo was probably the easiest heroic though. Certainly easier than H bethilac and H baelroc and H rylioth.

Yes. You can go back and look at my profile. I had them completed when they were current. ToT fights are much harder (from a healer perspective) than most of all previous raids. Horridon is mostly just a gear check but is a very tight one and in that sense is probably more difficult than mots of Firelands. I would KILL for a H bethilac fight in firelands. I can hardcast in H bethilac ffs..

---------- Post added 2013-04-13 at 02:38 PM ----------

Sry the thing you linked is bullshit, over simplification : sure there are more mechanics as a whole, but you as a player don't need to know all of them.

if you are explaining every single mechanics to every single raider, then yes you are doing it wrong and wasting time and confusing everyone. For each role (tank / DPS / healer) theres only like 1 MAYBE 2 mechanics per fight you need to handle.
In the past tiers, all mechanics affected everyone, and there was a lot more coordination (releasing whelps, playing turrets, blackouts ...)
On horridon for example, you just focus on your individual task and all is fine :

healers watch triple punture and dispell
dps nuke : bigg ad > small add > boss
tank : tank boss in front of door, bubble to clear stacks / swap at each door.
that. is. it.

what did i raid in the past and do i still raid now ? is that your question ? (sry theres words missing from your sentence)
Yes ive cleared Naxx with immortal and undying runs weekly to boost people
Ive cleared Ulduar hard modes, including Yogg 1 light etc, Ive cleared ToC hc (almost had the no wipes one, at 5% ), Ive cleared ICC HC before Cataclysm, Ive cleared BoT hc (hmm possibly not last few bosses here. Am missing sinestra though, guild disband around that point, Ive cleared .
Missing Nefarian too, although i think i did it later for the lols. Not even sure though. Anything before that, yes hc.
Firelands all clear on HC, got legendary. Dragons soul same, all clear on hc.

I am not sure what your point was, i hope i answered the question otherwise this looks like im bragging which is not my itention at all.

No the only bullshit is what your spouting. What I linked was sound research and investigation done using figures and facts. Raiding has only gotten more bloated and difficult and ToT is an extreme. Every ToT fight feels like a heroic fight and the developers have acknowledged this. Both in terms of nerfing it now but also because GC was linked that very same post and he agreed it was a fair point. I hate to say it but I think your full of shit and your lying about your past raiding experience. Past raiding was a joke compared to now. I would kill for a TBC style raid. YOu know how fucking easy that would be by comparison? TBC raids weren't massive obstacle courses that I had to spend 90% of the time navigating. TBC raids allows you to AVOID DMG COMPLETELY so long as you avoided the mechanics. Guess what happens in ToT? YOU TAKE DAMAGE EVEN IF YOU AVOID THE MECHANIC. So yes ToT is harder, much harder and much more overload. Every fight in ToT is busy, TO BUSY.

[Deleted]

Yes. You can go back and look at my profile. I had them completed when they were current. Those fights are much harder (from a healer perspective) than most of instance. Horridon is mostly just a gear check but is a very tight one.

Its not a dps race, its a don't die and you win, much like almost all the bosses in the first half of ToT (haven't done the second part yet)
Its a control fight, where you need a little bit of focus firing on the adds, killing them in the right order.

1rst door is a joke, second is a joke if you choose two people assigned to interrupt the priests, 3rd is chaotic and you just need to blow BL and burn them all down, 4th is a joke.
When you pass the 3rd door one or two times, the down happens in 3/4 tries average.

Garalon was a true gearcheck (as much as it can be nowadays). Horridon kinda is, but at least you have the possibility of gaining something by controlling the adds and smoothing the damage by not standing in crap.

[Glorious Leader]

Its not a dps race, its a don't die and you win, much like almost all the bosses in the first half of ToT (haven't done the second part yet)
Its a control fight, where you need a little bit of focus firing on the adds, killing them in the right order.

1rst door is a joke, second is a joke if you choose two people assigned to interrupt the priests, 3rd is chaotic and you just need to blow BL and burn them all down, 4th is a joke.
When you pass the 3rd door one or two times, the down happens in 3/4 tries average.

Garalon was a true gearcheck (as much as it can be nowadays). Horridon kinda is, but at least you have the possibility of gaining something by controlling the adds and smoothing the damage by not standing in crap.

Actually no it's not. It's a dps race. If your dps isn't up to part and can't kill adds fast enough then you just get overwhelmed between doors. Like even if you don't count the doors Horridon himself will eventually kill your tanks when your healers run out of mana because your dps is piss poor. Yes it is a dps race. That's why the adds had their health nerfed. God I'm so tired of arguing this because your not only arguing against me your now arguing against the developers themselves.

Have any of you people actually raided this tier? Even if you ignore the DPS RACE that is the door adds HORRIDON himself goes nuts after you kill jalak and you have to kill him ASAP otherwise it's a wipe. i.e A DPS RACE.

[Deleted]

Sorry, regarding the Firelands HC and ToT normal i think we got our wires mixed up. I think that firelands HC was at the time a LOT harder than ToT normal is now. I'm not sure where you stand on that as you've said two opposites (not trying to turn your words, sry, just trying to understand your point) :

ToT normal is worse than most of the firelands heroics
Yes. You can go back and look at my profile. I had them completed when they were current. Those fights are much harder (from a healer perspective) than most of instance. Horridon is mostly just a gear check but is a very tight one.

Your "research and figures" is just saying that for each fight, the dungeon journal is now bigger than in previous tiers.
Alright. And what i am saying (and some comments on that post), is that :
BEFORE : everyone was concerned by every mechanic
NOW : more mechanics, but you are personally only concerned by 1-2.

I get you point about healing : there are now aoe abilities that hit you even if you dont stand in shit. Well, its not life threatening, and if you are panicking every time someone is not topped up, then you shouldn't. It's the healer triage thing they introduced in Cata. Not every is always full hp.

---------- Post added 2013-04-13 at 02:50 PM ----------

I hate to say it but I think your full of shit and your lying about your past raiding experience

if you don''t believe i have done HCs in previous tiers .... just check my armory in my sig

[Deleted]

Actually no it's not. It's a dps race. If your dps isn't up to part and can't kill adds fast enough then you just get overwhelmed between doors. Like even if you don't count the doors Horridon himself will eventually kill your tanks when your healers run out of mana because your dps is piss poor. Yes it is a dps race. That's why the adds had their health nerfed. God I'm so tired of arguing this because your not only arguing against me your now arguing against the developers themselves.

No, thats if you have very bad dps. If we go about it like this, every fight is a dps check. If you don't kill the boss fast enough healers will have no mana and people will die.

[Glorious Leader]

No, thats if you have very bad dps. If we go about it like this, every fight is a dps check. If you don't kill the boss fast enough healers will have no mana and people will die.

No dude. It's a DPS CHECK. It's a dps race PERIOD. War God jalak is killed and you have to kill him because his dmg is increased and he will DESTROY YOUR TANKS. Have you people raided this tier? At all? Do you have any idea what your talking about?

[Deleted]

No dude. It's a DPS CHECK. It's a dps race PERIOD. War God jalak is killed and you have to kill him because his dmg is increased and he will DESTROY YOUR TANKS. Have you people raided this tier? At all? Do you have any idea what your talking about?

I have.
We're average casual and killed horridon with 497 ilvl the 2nd week, raiding 5 hours a week.
Our dps wasnt great, control was good, low damage overall and never had the time to dps the boss before we killed all the adds of the 4th door, proof our dps wasnt through the roof at all. Barely killed Sha before 5.2 came out.
Sure, we wiped around 35/40 times on him I think, firsts one where total chaos, but you improve and finally kill a boss.

If the enrage timer was tighter, I'd agree with you, only its not, enrage timer arent tight at all we had more than 1 minute and a half before enrage iirc.. GC/Blizzard said enrage timer and dps check were too tight last tier and they wont do the same errors again.

[Glorious Leader]

Sorry, regarding the Firelands HC and ToT normal i think we got our wires mixed up. I think that firelands HC was at the time a LOT harder than ToT normal is now. I'm not sure where you stand on that as you've said two opposites (not trying to turn your words, sry, just trying to understand your point) :




Your "research and figures" is just saying that for each fight, the dungeon journal is now bigger than in previous tiers.
Alright. And what i am saying (and some comments on that post), is that :
BEFORE : everyone was concerned by every mechanic
NOW : more mechanics, but you are personally only concerned by 1-2.

I get you point about healing : there are now aoe abilities that hit you even if you dont stand in shit. Well, its not life threatening, and if you are panicking every time someone is not topped up, then you shouldn't. It's the healer triage thing they introduced in Cata. Not every is always full hp.

---------- Post added 2013-04-13 at 02:50 PM ----------

i can't find the bit of your text where you don''t believe i have done HCs in previous tiers .... just check my armory in my sig

Right because the fights are more complicated than the previous tiers. As is the bloat of abilities and rotations. It is indeed life threatening and the more important thing is that when you run to avoid a mechanic two things happen.

1. You take dmg even if you avoid it
2. You've lost an opportunity cost to actually heal so you are at a double deficit.

In Megara for instance it becomes VERY VERY LIFE threatening. Firelands heroics at the time WERE NOT harder than normal ToT. let me be clear. We spent ONE NIGHT on heroic Beth and we got her down. The same group of raiders more or less couldn't get megara IN ONE NIGHT. Heroic Firelands was a JOKE compared to Normal ToT and frankly all previous tiers are a joke. Why is that? because normal is no longer normal. Hell Normal firelands we were laughing at this. Like never mind the fact that were not comparing normal to normal, even HEROIC firelands was easier than this. The figures suggest this even if your absurd anecdotes don't.

Healer triage in cata did not involve the constant loss of both opportunity cost AND just raw dmg output. The numbers don't lie. ToT is OVERLOADED with shit. I spend more time running to avoid the constant barrage of abilities thrown out by the bosses than I do actually healing. Individually and for the raid overall it's overloaded. Your just talking out your ass.

[Deleted]

Just pop hero on the war god and he melts

[Glorious Leader]

I have.
We're average casual and killed horridon with 497 ilvl the 2nd week, raiding 5 hours a week.
Our dps wasnt great, control was good, low damage overall and never had the time to dps the boss before we killed all the adds of the 4th door, proof our dps wasnt through the roof at all. Barely killed Sha before 5.2 came out.
Sure, we wiped around 35/40 times on him I think, firsts one where total chaos, but you improve and finally kill a boss.

If the enrage timer was tighter, I'd agree with you, only its not, enrage timer arent tight at all we had more than 1 minute and a half before enrage iirc.. GC/Blizzard said enrage timer and dps check were too tight last tier and they wont do the same errors again.

It's an enrage timer when it will stack high enough and kill the tank anyway. Horridon is a dps check PERIOD. That's why the health on the adds was nerfed. They made the same error again the only difference was they just didn't have an actual physical enrage timer. Well enrage timers aren't the sole criteria for dps checks.

---------- Post added 2013-04-13 at 02:59 PM ----------

Just pop hero on the war god and he melts

and then you don't have hero for the door. Either way DPS CHECK. Have you people actually raided this tier?

[Deleted]

on megaera, soprry to say, but from what i read in the past pages, your head kill order is totallly wrong... this is why you are having to move so much. We just sit tight on, only person who moves is the one targeted. dont dispell before the person is outside.

---------- Post added 2013-04-13 at 03:01 PM ----------

and then you don't have hero for the door. Either way DPS CHECK. Have you people actually raided this tier?

yes, a lot more than you lol.

[Deleted]

and then you don't have hero for the door. Either way DPS CHECK. Have you people actually raided this tier?

Didnt saw your "question", I've been raiding since vanilla, only raid I missed was Dragon Soul.
Been in a casual 2 raid a week since ICC, 5 hours a week, killed Tortos and Mega last week.

[Glorious Leader]

on megaera, soprry to say, but from what i read in the past pages, your head kill order is totallly wrong... this is why you are having to move so much. We just sit tight on, only person who moves is the one targeted. dont dispell before the person is outside.

---------- Post added 2013-04-13 at 03:01 PM ----------



yes, a lot more than you lol.

I doubt it but feel free to carry on. We've tried any number of head orders. The people I raid with are extremely smart, educated and know how the fuck to play (got a couple of deaths demise server firsts). We know what were doing and we've tried most of the heard orders. We've also looked into trying different head strategies and we're not giving up. We don't give up. It should speak volumes then we I say (and this is generally agreed upon in guild although some people like this challenge and that's fine) that this is the hardest normal tier we've ever faced and by comparison previous heroic tiers were easy. I would gladly heal a fight like H bethilac again. I could hard cast ffs.

[proteen]

In regards to Garalon's enrage timer increasing by 5 minutes... My guild just got to Garalon last week and we had 2 wipes at under 5%. We saw this update and scoffed. 5 extra minutes is and was extremely unnecessary. 1 minute, or maybe 2 would suffice. But if a guild really needs that big of a push in the DPS race, they shouldn't have even been able to kill the first boss in HoF.

[Glorious Leader]

Didnt saw your "question", I've been raiding since vanilla, only raid I missed was Dragon Soul.
Been in a casual 2 raid a week since ICC, 5 hours a week, killed Tortos and Mega last week.

Congratulations. It was more a figurative question than anything. Horridon is still a dps check though. Just because you want to call bad dps bad doesn't mean it isn't.

[Deleted]

Oops, sorry, just checked, 15 wipe on horridon, 32 on tortos .

[Deleted]

snip.

we don't even touch the blue head, although i think sometimes we kill it towards the end ... but it always starts with
green>red>green>red>green>red>green

and we dont even move that much . Person targeted with cinders runs out and THEN they are dispelled (dispell too early = thats the space killer)
Person with blue beam just takes it over cinders. Done. Its pretty much the easiest fight in the instance, like Jinrokh but without as much movement.

you and your hardcasts .... I can't wait to have your feedback for Jinrokh HC once every single normal has been nerfed to the ground ^^... That storm phase is 100 % movement and massive healing required.

[Glorious Leader]

we don't even touch the blue head, although i think sometimes we kill it towards the end ... but it always starts with
green>red>green>red>green>red>green

and we dont even move that much . Person targeted with cinders runs out and THEN they are dispelled (dispell too early = thats the space killer)
Person with blue beam just takes it over cinders. Done. Its pretty much the easiest fight in the instance, like Jinrokh but without as much movement.

you and your hardcasts .... I can't wait to have your feedback for Jinrokh HC once every single normal has been nerfed to the ground ^^... That storm phase is 100 % movement and massive healing required.

Yea that was the strat we started out with and will probably stick with. The problem is that the last two heads become even more healing intensive than the rampage and guess what we have to move all the time because theirs so many dead green heads throwing explosions on the ground. with all the red heads up the cinders begin to tick for an enourmous amount of dmg as well so even if we wait to cleanse people (and we do) we end up having to cleanse it off them before they die.

See it becomes a case where I have to heal my assignment, move to avoid being one shot by green explosions, navigate the path between fire and green shit while not running in front of the snakes so I don't get breathed on, watch the player with the debuff until hes far enough alone by himself to be cleansed, pay attention to my mana pool as well as cooldowns, and if need be throw out a potentially life saving raid heal or bop.

If that is the easiest fight in the instance (which I doubt) then yea the instances are over tuned for normals. Theirs no reason I should avoid a mechanic and still get hit by it's damage. It's both a loss of health and a loss of the opportunity cost to heal somebody. It more often than not results in someone dead, especially when you have multiple green heads in the back. Heroic Bethilac was easier to heal and easier to kill when it was current.

[Deleted]

as a healer, stay in melee, and have the ranged stay out. the bomb will usually target the ranged.
Theres like 3 green explosions max for each kill ... what did you expect, stand still and spam divine ? thats LFR difficulty.

Normals should involve at least a bit of thinking and coordination imo