Holy mother 10man nerf

[Hayro1]

The problem is every person in your raid has to deal with 1-3 mechanics in these fights, That's fine if you are a heroic raiding guild but a normal raiding guild comprised of friends may well be carrying 1 or 2 raiders that just can't deal with 1-3 mechanics and these guilds are what normals should be tuned for,not heroic guilds who can easily deal with multiple mechanichs, That's what heroics are for.

Wow, I don't even know what to say. Should normal be turned into 1 mechanic Patchwerks? that's almost what you guys are asking for. Or for those mechanics to be tuned to such a low degree they can largely be ignored, or the laughable saying people like to use "more manageable/able to make mistakes." You could already make mistakes btw.

[Crashdummy]

Enlighten me, please. Tell me for Horridon other than what was already explained either on the last page, the most important part is the Venom Priests - outside of that you can literally slack and be alright. Orbs don't hurt that bad on normal, you should never be near the sand so that's kind of irrelevant. Or even Durumu, I'd love to see what you come up with.

Eevryone has to tbe cautious about sandtraps, frozen orbs.
Everyone has to be careful about double swipe.
Everyone has to be careful about charge
Everyone has to be careful about their positioning and their team mates positioning
DPSers need to be careful about interrupts.
Everyone that can dispell has to pay atention to whateevr debuff the raid can have that they can dispell.
Everyone should be aware of what target has the adds that puts a disease when they touch you have picked.

Etc, etc, etc.

And no, they are irrelevant TO YOU, which is exactly my point. For the average people, that is playing with average healers and average tanks, no mechanic is irrelevant.

So yes, maybe Heroic players doing normal content can ignore some mechanics, because their healers can make some damage irrelevant for example, but AVERAGE players playing with AVERAGE people cant.

This is exactly the problem, you are looking at the fights from your perspective, not from the perspective of average people in average groups.

[Candiman]

Wow, I don't even know what to say. I said that not everyone in your raid should have to deal with multiple mechanics and you went straight to Patchwerk. All I said was that normal fights shoudn't be tuned for everyone having to manage 1-3 mechanics. Don't know where you got Patchwerk from that. I have also said earlier in this thread that if Horridon was about the 6th boss in this instance then no nerfs would be neccesary. The boss was overtuned for it's position in the instance.

[Hayro1]

The boss was overtuned for it's position in the instance.

The first boss is vastly undertuned, he's literally Morchok 2.0.

[HardCoder]

No, then Council would be 2nd and they'd still be stuck. The only real way to avoid this was to not make Jin'rokh stupidly easy and give people the false sense of that ToT is where they belong. They should have ramped up Jin to be very marginally easier than Horridon and then it would be 100x easier to point out to people that they clearly don't belong there, where as now its still clear they don't belong if they are stuck on Horridon for most people, but as they have killed a boss in ToT, they don't want to go back down to t14 which is the argument a lot of people here and in the other Horridon thread have made.

You have a funny view of difficulty.

Normal mode should be readily doable by people who don't have the skill to do heroic modes. In T15 as well as in HoF the only people that haven't struggled profoundly are heroic raiders, and they don't care a bit about normal modes.

There's no point in normal mode being so difficult that if you can do it, you will not find heroic much harder. It's just a waste of a difficulty level.

---------- Post added 2013-04-13 at 04:53 PM ----------

Exactly, it is irrelevant if you have 15 loot pinatas after the blocking boss if the blocking boss can only be killed by 5 guilds it is effectively gating the instance when 40k guilds could kill the 15 bosses behind the blocking boss. obviously you need to highlight it with extreme numbers or the folks in denial will never get the point

Pretty much every guild that was having trouble in HoF had a raid member cheese them into ToES. At least it was possible to get around Garalon and Empress.

[Hayro1]

Eevryone has to tbe cautious about sandtraps, frozen orbs.
Everyone has to be careful about double swipe.
Everyone has to be careful about charge
Everyone has to be careful about their positioning and their team mates positioning
DPSers need to be careful about interrupts.
Everyone that can dispell has to pay atention to whateevr debuff the raid can have that they can dispell.
Everyone should be aware of what target has the adds that puts a disease when they touch you have picked.

If you have to worry about sandtraps, then you're not paying attention to begin with, they're easily avoidable and almost ignorable. Frozen Orbs wander, stay away from them....man...hard. That's why the side of the boss is always facing the door, and charge? really? lol. Why do people have to worry where others are? Venom Priests are the only ones that need interrupts, and the green thing (name escapes me) has like 6-800k HP. Let's count, Frozen Orbs since sandtraps are largely ignorable, double swipe if your tank has him positioned terribly and/or you're not paying attention, Venom Priests. That's 2 (Orbs/VP) that everyone has to deal with. You run away from those adds that throw out diseases.

Why do I say sandtraps are ignorable? because, you can move away from them far easier than Orbs, thus ignorable unless you are not paying attention whatsoever. Only time DBS has to be worried about is if people with charge don't move, so 3 if you honestly count that.

[Deleted]

You are wrong about that heroic raiders don't care about normal modes. If anyone can clear normal, it will be much harder to see if someone applying to their guild is good or not. If they are stuck at Horridon, they most likely suck and are not worth recruiting.

[Deleted]

Wow, I don't even know what to say. I said that not everyone in your raid should have to deal with multiple mechanics and you went straight to Patchwerk. All I said was that normal fights shoudn't be tuned for everyone having to manage 1-3 mechanics. Don't know where you got Patchwerk from that. I have also said earlier in this thread that if Horridon was about the 6th boss in this instance then no nerfs would be neccesary. The boss was overtuned for it's position in the instance.

I don't think so.

The boss seemed a lot harder because Jin was a friggin loot pinata, so it wrongfully lowered people expectations of the whole raid.

Council was harder for us than horridon, and Tortos was wayyyyyyy harder than Horridon.

Everyone has the idea that you're basically born to be a Heroic/Normal/LFR raider. You're not. You're not born with great reaction time, or great vision, it takes work to achieve that.
Despite what some say here, people improve, and some improve A LOT. We recruited someone who was average at best a year ago, now he's almost the best player of the raid, because he saw he wasn't topping meters and was doing a lot more errors than other people in the raid. He worked on it, the results are here. (btw, isn't a no-life at all, he has a family and kids, works everyday, plays maybe 1/2 hours tops a day, and when we raid 2 times a week)

I too, think there's always room to improve, even if you are killing ra'den world first, you still have some things to learn. I work on this, and I like it. Being given something out when you didn't work for it isn't rewarding. I like to see progress in our raid, players, and myself.

It's not like most people are wiping on some bosses for weeks/months now, it happened before and no ones complained, why is everyone complaining now that you're blocked on a boss for 2/3 raids TOPS ?
You don't need to farm resist gear anymore, flasks/pots are so cheap and you don't have to farm them .. Really, raiding is a joke now. And no, NM raiding isnt for everyone, LFR is.

It's obvious people want to be able to kill boss/loot with minimal work, but raiding like this can't last forever, this isn't even raiding if its LFR difficulty, its watching a movie..
If you want to raid you have to work for it, its only normal to work on your character and pull your raid up to down some boss, not slack and hold your raid back.
If you are holding your raid back because you don't work for it, its basic and utter disrespect towards the people in your raid to me, and you shouldn't raid with people until you understand that. (unless your raid doesn't care about killing bosses and is just here for the lulz)

I really can't understand how some people know they are "bad", not doing a good job, and still don't care about it, then choose not to even try to improve.

[Candiman]

Eihwaz I abso;utely understand what you are syaing but the simple fact is that most normal raiding guilds will not put that much effort into a game. The people that really want to devote time outside of the game and refine strats and get that extra 1% DPS are the audience for heroic raids. The simple fact is that the majority of raiders have been wiping on Horridon for weeks and this nerf is needed.

[Crashdummy]

If you have to worry about sandtraps, then you're not paying attention to begin with, they're easily avoidable and almost ignorable. Frozen Orbs wander, stay away from them....man...hard. That's why the side of the boss is always facing the door, and charge? really? lol. Why do people have to worry where others are? Venom Priests are the only ones that need interrupts, and the green thing (name escapes me) has like 6-800k HP. Let's count, Frozen Orbs since sandtraps are largely ignorable, double swipe if your tank has him positioned terribly and/or you're not paying attention, Venom Priests. That's 2 (Orbs/VP) that everyone has to deal with. You run away from those adds that throw out diseases.

Why do I say sandtraps are ignorable? because, you can move away from them far easier than Orbs, thus ignorable unless you are not paying attention whatsoever. Only time DBS has to be worried about is if people with charge don't move, so 3 if you honestly count that.

Yes you have to worry about them. Thorim laser were easily avoidable too, yet they were a mechanic.

They are almost ignorable in a group with good healers, in a group with average healers THEY ARE NOT.

The point isnt if they are hard to avoid or not, the point is that there are at least 10 mechanics that everyone MUST pay atention to.

People have to worry about when other are because even if the boss dont charge you, he will do a double swipe inmediately after the boss charges, which means you will have to be aware of it.

If you have to move away of sandtraps, then they are not ignorable....

The only mechanics void reaver had for ranged was a ball you had to move away from, does that mean you can ignore the mechanic? NO, it means you have to be aware of it.

First you said only 1 mechanics per role was present, now you say everything is ignorable.

Well, its not, clearly, since a lot of people failed at it.

[Hayro1]

They are almost ignorable in a group with good healers, in a group with average healers THEY ARE NOT.

What? they take forever to form on the ground, you can see them forming, you just move. It does ~40-50k a second, if you stand in it that's clearly your fault. People standing in bad is all that is, they should not be tuned around where everyone can just dance around in bad and be semi-alright. Also, what lazer? only thing I can even think of is Mimi.

First you said only 1 mechanics per role was present, now you say everything is ignorable.

Ah, trying to twist what I've said eh? I said 1-3 things, one to three.

-

Now it's 10 mechanics everyone MUST pay attention to, lol. Your responses get better and better every time. If you're going to nitpick every single mechanic and every single situation for "average players," then just stop. It's not even close to a good argument at all.

[isadorr]

According to the info released about 10 days ago about titan, it will be hardcore orientated :
http://titanfocus.info/_/news/projec...3-and-more-r65

They want to make it into an eSport, like WoW was never able to because of the constant balancing of classes and abilities (pvp or pve. You can argue wow PvP is an eSport, but ... its not). You can't nerf stats every week whenever the player base QQs if you make a game an esport. Immagine SC tank and marine damage changedf whenever a zerg player QQ on forums. Doesn't work like that. So there will be much less nerfs, and much more stability.

When you say eSports, of course people can play it casually. But at least the ones who do play casually won't impact the hardcore player base (ie: no nerfing all the time to make the content doable by everyone. there will probably be leagues or something along those lines. Depends how much PvE / PvP it is. I don't even know if there will be bosses or whatnot).

Wow , by design has a model where its (arguably..) hard the first weeks, then nerfs kick in, whether they be blanket (ICC, DS etc), or individual and boss specific (ToT).Titan, from the little info we have at the moment, will not be like that. (yipeeeee)
WoW will be here to cater for the casuals, as it is increasingly doing so (as explained by posts above, Quarterly call followed by nerfs, and LFR etc), even though casuals still can't interrupt an add and move out of green on the floor.

The idea is to keep Wow as it is, with nerfs and catering to bads. Then Titan will be highly competitive and a E-sport with high end raiding/scenario's, all different kinds of competition. No nerfs, no catering to bads, nothing like that. I think it is going to be awesome and as was posted earlier , people that cant compete at Titan will fall back to Wow.

---------- Post added 2013-04-14 at 01:33 AM ----------

eSports can just as well mean you have a total different rule set for how PvP ( which is where the eSports comes in most likely) works compared to PvE, you can have super casual PvE content and still feature eSports PvP that also from the start have totally separate rules in place for how spells and such work. we can see frequent normalization of gears to feature equal level combat since what fun is eSports when one side comes to the bar with AR-15 while you only can show up with a knife.

But drawing the conclusion that Titanprojects PvE will be hardcore tuned is not something you can draw from any of the leaked information.

Actually it has been mentioned many times in the last year as "something that may being hardcore raiders back to the game." I am guessing that wouldnt be more casual play lol.

[celinamuna]

Eihwaz I abso;utely understand what you are syaing but the simple fact is that most normal raiding guilds will not put that much effort into a game. The people that really want to devote time outside of the game and refine strats and get that extra 1% DPS are the audience for heroic raids. The simple fact is that the majority of raiders have been wiping on Horridon for weeks and this nerf is needed.

Then those raiders can go back to LFR and enjoy the content ?

[mordale]

tortos nerf is rather understandable for 10man, less people = less slows.

[Crashdummy]

What? they take forever to form on the ground, you can see them forming, you just move. It does ~40-50k a second, if you stand in it that's clearly your fault. People standing in bad is all that is, they should not be tuned around where everyone can just dance around in bad and be semi-alright. Also, what lazer? only thing I can even think of is Mimi.



Ah, trying to twist what I've said eh? I said 1-3 things, one to three.

-

Now it's 10 mechanics everyone MUST pay attention to, lol. Your responses get better and better every time. If you're going to nitpick every single mechanic and every single situation for "average players," then just stop. It's not even close to a good argument at all.

Why does it matter if they take forever to form? They are mechanics, mechanics that EVERYONE needs to know what they do, that they will be present and how to react to them.

There are a lot more than 3, and the HUGE amount of % that havent kill him should give you a hi8nt that its not as easy as you think.

You want to oversimplify somethign that is not simple for a big % of players.

Average groups have problems with sandtraps. Average groups have problems with frozen orbs, THAT'S WHY THEY ARE AVERAGE.

Average groups couldnt finish HoF.

---------- Post added 2013-04-13 at 11:17 PM ----------

Then those raiders can go back to LFR and enjoy the content ?

Or maybe NORMAL raiding shouldnt be tuned for the best 25% of people that want to raid?

[Candiman]

Then those raiders can go back to LFR and enjoy the content ?

LFR is not aimed at average raiders. It is aimed at people that do not have the time to commit to raiding guilds. I asked a few pages back why do people want to push more and more people into LFR and out of normal modes?. Heroic modes haven't been touched and the more people raiding normal modes the better for everyone. Blizzard can see that normal and heroics are still worth developing, heroic gulds have a pool of normal raiders that may want to push further. If all the normal raiders get pushed to LFR then when the heroic raiders quit or burn out and stop raiding who takes their place?

I also have to say where in that link does it say that Titan will be aimed at hardcore raiders. Being an eSport has no correlation to hardcore. It just means that PvP will be balanced.

[NeverStop]

Normal raiders still have 4 months until the tier is over. There's plenty of time for them to get extra VP and LFR gear to help them kill Normal mode bosses. Ahead of the Curve should be a huge accomplishment. Killing Lei Shen Normal before 5.4 comes out should be hard.

[Deleted]

Don't worry, they will never produce only LFR.

[Punisher069]

LFR is not aimed at average raiders. It is aimed at people that do not have the time to commit to raiding guilds. I asked a few pages back why do people want to push more and more people into LFR and out of normal modes?. Heroic modes haven't been touched and the more people raiding normal modes the better for everyone. Blizzard can see that normal and heroics are still worth developing, heroic gulds have a pool of normal raiders that may want to push further. If all the normal raiders get pushed to LFR then when the heroic raiders quit or burn out and stop raiding who takes their place?

I'm going to be honest I never really though of that. That is a very good point.

[celinamuna]

Or maybe NORMAL raiding shouldnt be tuned for the best 25% of people that want to raid?

I'm sorry but more than 25% already killed primordius. So they're most likely going to kill lei-shen around 5.3 if not sooner. So yea...