Renataki's Soul Charm

[orderofmaken]

Would it be a DPS loss when using RSC to clip/refresh a rupture early, or even clip an envenom when it's at max stacks? Given rupture does take a snapshot when used, and 15k+ agility is a lot of a boost toward either ability. I was just wondering how people play using this trinket in their playstyle as these trinkets are so damn random and with envenom and rupture lasting so long due to tier set it's practically hard to get a new one off at the time you normally would while benefiting from that massive scale of raw agility.

[Kassadin]

Rupture doesn't do too much dmg for Combat/Assassination, so you'd be wasting combo points on that rupture; combo points that can be put forward for an envenom or eviscerate. Perhaps this may work if you're one of the tiny percentage or rogues that play Subtlety in PvE.

[theherecy]

Would it be a DPS loss when using RSC to clip/refresh a rupture early, or even clip an envenom when it's at max stacks? Given rupture does take a snapshot when used, and 15k+ agility is a lot of a boost toward either ability. I was just wondering how people play using this trinket in their playstyle as these trinkets are so damn random and with envenom and rupture lasting so long due to tier set it's practically hard to get a new one off at the time you normally would while benefiting from that massive scale of raw agility.

Refresh rupture between the last tick and it falling off, try and avoid overlapping envenom buffs. That's the stable of playing style, but people really shy away from being dynamic and that's where you really have to perform. You're absolutely right with the snapshot mechanics, I can do a 5CP rupture at then end of both trinket procs and it will sustain that initial damage for the 30s or so.

The following explains a brief strategy of how to deal with the trinket procs (especially RSC):
1) If Rupture has a short duration left (< 3 ticks) then use a 5CP rupture before the trinket(s) drop. You can easily do the math here, how much the ticks gain in dmg-(how many ticks you lost*damage of normal ticks)
2) Don't be afraid to use an extra envenom at the end of trinket procs, especially RSC. That extra damage definitely helps but again, look at how many potential DP applications you are missing out on. A solid rule again is if the envenom buff < 3s, go for it. Although be more leniant when you have 20k agility from trinkets :P
3) With RSC save it to the last minute, because of the stacking nature hold as many moves to the end

With all that said, it really comes down to your damage and gear. You MUST do your own maths to work out the potential gains and what I have said is just pure estimations.

For me, assuming my maths is correct:

I'm hitting every 1s in each hand and during the 7 second envenom buff I can get 3 mutilates off, i.e. 17 strikes in the 7s of buff. With an extra 15% chance of application, this should equal 2.55*12k(avg hit) = 30k EXTRA DMG. Conversely, an envenom with DU Bottle provides about 20k in envenom damage, RSC substantially more towards the end and both is ludicrous.

Let's sum the findings up then:
1) Bottle on it's own doesn't provide a benefit from 2xenvenom
2) RSC does
3) Both provides a substantial increase

But we are missing one important factor, crit. Dual proccing trinkets provides about 11% crit which would apply to the envenoms, but not to the ruptures or poisons that would be used after trinks fall off.

Further revision of dynamic rotation during trinket procs:
1) Forget rupture dps increases but don't ever let it fall off
2) If RSC is reaching the end go for a 2 x envenom
3) If you are dual proccing trinkets, try and get a 2 x envenom in a way that benefits from both trinkets

Good luck with it and if coldkill/ryme or some other expert could destroy my maths that would be awesome.

[orderofmaken]

Thanks for the insight into that math there; it's definitely given me a wider perspective on when to use things.

I'm currently using ToB with RSC though, as SC is clearly telling me it's about 1-2k more over DU bottle. I'm guessing due to the synergy of haste with double rppm trinks.

I do have another two queries though: say if rupture runs out like early into the stacking phase of RSC 1-4 stacks-ish, is it worth refreshing rupture then to not missing out on energy gains/VW procs? Or waiting till the end when it's going to snapshot at it's peak?

I was testing it out a couple of times and that scenario did crop up; especially when RSC Proc'd back-to-back. XD

Also, is it worth holding off with SB and Vendetta for a SC proc? The only problem I can foresee is you could be waiting a long time, or you could get lucky and suddenly get several procs. But the potential burst from lining them up must be sweet, especially with that 4 set.

[theherecy]

You're looking at something like 10k gains in damage through snapshotting, but losing out on 5 or 6 ticks of potential energy, i.e. A mutilate which equates to far more damage. The resounding "never let it drop off" still applies.

Holding back cooldowns depends on fight length. If the fight is 7 minutes I know I'm going to use shadow blades 3 times ( 0th, 3rd, 6th minute) and so that last shadow bladees can be delayed for a cooldown absolutely, it is definitely a DPS increase but you may need a few tries on the boss to get used to how quick it goes down. NEVER WASTE A CD!

[Carp The Fish]

Thanks for the insight into that math there; it's definitely given me a wider perspective on when to use things.

I'm currently using ToB with RSC though, as SC is clearly telling me it's about 1-2k more over DU bottle. I'm guessing due to the synergy of haste with double rppm trinks.

I do have another two queries though: say if rupture runs out like early into the stacking phase of RSC 1-4 stacks-ish, is it worth refreshing rupture then to not missing out on energy gains/VW procs? Or waiting till the end when it's going to snapshot at it's peak?

I was testing it out a couple of times and that scenario did crop up; especially when RSC Proc'd back-to-back. XD

Also, is it worth holding off with SB and Vendetta for a SC proc? The only problem I can foresee is you could be waiting a long time, or you could get lucky and suddenly get several procs. But the potential burst from lining them up must be sweet, especially with that 4 set.

Don't wait to refresh Rupture; the missed energy regen is (90% positive) going to be a bigger loss than the stronger Rupture could give. (note: Venomous Wounds doesn't scale with Rupture ticks). I might be wrong (Heroic Soul Charm is much more powerful than reg Soul Charm), but I'm guessing this is accurate.

And there's no hard-and-fast rule on "saving SB/Vendetta"; you want to time your cooldowns so that you get the most uses of them in a single fight.

[Deleted]

Rupture doesn't do too much dmg for Combat/Assassination, so you'd be wasting combo points on that rupture; combo points that can be put forward for an envenom or eviscerate. Perhaps this may work if you're one of the tiny percentage or rogues that play Subtlety in PvE.

Eh....keeping rupture uptime is essential for assassination rogues....considering it procs your venomous wounds and venomous vim!...combat is another story, where rupture isnt really required, as it is still a very minor dps increase at best.

as for the OP's question i'd say that theherecy has answered that pretty well....however, clipping as a general rule is bad, as its a net dps loss regardless of trinket procs.

[Carp The Fish]

...combat is another story, where rupture isnt really required, as it is still a very minor dps increase at best.

That leads me to another question: Once a Combat rogue gets the T15 2P, is Rupture ALWAYS a DPS increase?
(it already is, but T15 2P might mean that min-maxers will want closeer-to-90% Rupture uptime, I was just curious)

[theherecy]

That leads me to another question: Once a Combat rogue gets the T15 2P, is Rupture ALWAYS a DPS increase?
(it already is, but T15 2P might mean that min-maxers will want closeer-to-90% Rupture uptime, I was just curious)

Like you said it always has been, if you can't be bothered to weave rupture in you should get out of the raiding game :P

[Carp The Fish]

Like you said it always has been, if you can't be bothered to weave rupture in you should get out of the raiding game :P

That doesn't answer my question. Currently, Rupture is a MINOR DPS increase over Eviscerate. Will the extra ticks provided by the T15 2P mean that it will be a large-enough gap to where Combat rogues will want even more uptime?

[Kassadin]

Eh....keeping rupture uptime is essential for assassination rogues....considering it procs your venomous wounds and venomous vim!...combat is another story, where rupture isnt really required, as it is still a very minor dps increase at best.

as for the OP's question i'd say that theherecy has answered that pretty well....however, clipping as a general rule is bad, as its a net dps loss regardless of trinket procs.

I was more speaking in terms of rupture itself. The Venomous Wounds ticks are just proc off rupture which is independent of the snapshotted stats of rupture. He'll essentially lose those extra venomous wound ticks by prematurely refreshing rupture, thus losing potential energy and damage.

[theherecy]

That doesn't answer my question. Currently, Rupture is a MINOR DPS increase over Eviscerate. Will the extra ticks provided by the T15 2P mean that it will be a large-enough gap to where Combat rogues will want even more uptime?

I'm not sure I follow. If you're asking will the change in rupture go from "mix-maxing" to "staple" then that's down to the individual. When I played combat, I always used rupture. as any dps increase was a benefit to me and it hardly changed my rotation.

I'm not sure why you're quoting uptime? It's no different to assassination, you clip the rupture to ensure you have 100% uptime, of course that isn't always possible.

[Carp The Fish]

I'm not sure I follow. If you're asking will the change in rupture go from "mix-maxing" to "staple" then that's down to the individual. When I played combat, I always used rupture. as any dps increase was a benefit to me and it hardly changed my rotation.

I'm not sure why you're quoting uptime? It's no different to assassination, you clip the rupture to ensure you have 100% uptime, of course that isn't always possible.

Yeah, I was thinking it'd go to "staple" for all Combat specs. The extra couple ticks you get from T15-2P-Rupture (should) result in a significant enough increase that letting Rupture drop is a more significant DPS loss than it is currently.

Back on topic a little: As Combat, if you apply a 10-stack Rupture, and your refresh wouldn't result in another 8-10 stack Rupture, should you wait for the 10-stack to run out?

[theherecy]

Yeah, I was thinking it'd go to "staple" for all Combat specs. The extra couple ticks you get from T15-2P-Rupture (should) result in a significant enough increase that letting Rupture drop is a more significant DPS loss than it is currently.

Back on topic a little: As Combat, if you apply a 10-stack Rupture, and your refresh wouldn't result in another 8-10 stack Rupture, should you wait for the 10-stack to run out?

I assume by stack you mean from RSC? In any case you should never be refreshing it earlier than necessary or letting it drop off, just anytime between the last tick and the end just hit another rupture off. An interesting question would be, if you know you have an imminent proc (bottle for example) should you wait. As combat rupture doesn't mean a great deal like you said but if it is in the next few seconds you can definitely grab some extra dps by eviscerating first then rupturing in the trinket proc.