Question regarding "BiS"

[Deleted]

I'm pretty casual nowadays, still enjoy theorycrafting and attempting to play to the best of my ability but the lack of time I have due to rl means I raid as part of a casual team within an otherwise decent guild (main team is 7/13hc)

Our raid leader is a simcraft contributor and bases gear distribution on the simcraft normal "BiS" lists that have been calculated. Trinkets for BiS normal 2h frost and unholy are listed as primordius' talisman and spark. I'm pretty much convinced that feather should be BiS and wonder (if this is the case) if any of the other listed gear would actually change due to the excessive hit gained from feather. For example, ATM according to him we'd break our set on the legs from lei shen - they're obviously awesome but IMO using the helm from Dark Animus would possibly be more beneficial as the tier legs don't have any hit (even if they do have mastery!)

Any clarification would be appreciated - I know it all gets a bit thrown off by thunder forged items etc but is feather normal-mode BiS for 2h frost and unholy, even if I weren't using a traditional "festerblight" rotation?

Thanks

[broodax]

Your raid leader is silly and should trust his raiders to figure things out rather than relying on a website list. The list here is out of date and has explicitly been described as such by the author. There is a new list on the way, but people don't have time to babysit all of the forums where it lives. The list in SimCraft is not even managed by any reasonable process, especially the normal mode list, which most of us that have worked on the DK profile or the Heroic BiS list don't care about.

Short answer - Yes, Feather is BiS. Primordius' should also be sought after, as you'll use it oven Shado-pan the majority of the time. The helm from DA is also BiS, the legs aren't even close.

[Deleted]

The helm from DA is also BiS, the legs aren't even close.

I'm not so sure about this, I think legs should be better.

[Maxweii]

Any clarification would be appreciated - I know it all gets a bit thrown off by thunder forged items etc but is feather normal-mode BiS for 2h frost and unholy, even if I weren't using a traditional "festerblight" rotation?

As far as I have always seen Feather always shows bad on sims, but it is still bis.

I personally find it very foolish that he would give gear out like that. My BIS list varies greatly compared to what i'll need to get before it. In fact my end tier "bis" list has some slots 2-6 items in there due to hit and exp being waaaaay over cap if I don't aim down a bit to be able to really min max some stats.

[Deleted]

I'm not so sure about this, I think legs should be better.

Pretty certain the main reason he'd be saying Helm is BiS is because it allows you to get rid of a lot of Hit.

[Deleted]

Your raid leader is silly and should trust his raiders to figure things out rather than relying on a website list.

I'm not really questioning the way he's chosen to distribute gear... Our "team" is a collection of "used to be hardcore raiders" that no longer have the time due to rl issues but attempt to get together for one or two raids a week. We've been lucky to get more than one proper raid a week and we've only just got our first attempts on normal Lei Shen today.

Most of us used to be raiders who would walk normal modes and we're now lucky if we have the same people (or even a full squad) turn up on set raid nights. I can see it from the raid leader's PoV... He's trying to maximise gear distribution so that someone doesn't get a trinket/tier piece one week and then replace it the next week because it ends up being an upgrade, aka wasting gear that could have gone to someone else and (due to RNG) we could never see again. Not everyone prepares or even knows what they should be breaking their tier on, hell I racechanged last week because being a Draenei meant that, with the council sword and feather I was waaaay over hit cap. I'll likely end up changing to worgen by the end of the tier (as ugly as they are!)

As far as I have always seen Feather always shows bad on sims, but it is still bis.

Is there any reason feather ends up bad in sims? Some sort of bug that could be fixed?

Pretty certain the main reason he'd be saying Helm is BiS is because it allows you to get rid of a lot of Hit.

Totally this ^^

Just looking at the dark animus helm vs the lei shen legs then I'd give the edge to the legs but, using the legs would mean also using the tier helm (more hit)

[bals]

pretty sure feather has been bis since they made some trinket changes. even if you're not using any of the hit
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20713478 for 2hand frost

[Maxweii]

Is there any reason feather ends up bad in sims? Some sort of bug that could be fixed?

I think the hit shows up weird or something, as well as the procs used to not work well on sims. I know that it's super powerful for any melee though

[Erishkigal]

I'm not so sure about this, I think legs should be better.

Off the top of my head Tier legs are the only slot with no accuracy stat. Seems dumb to waste them in a tier with accuracy stats everywhere.

[Deleted]

Pretty certain the main reason he'd be saying Helm is BiS is because it allows you to get rid of a lot of Hit.

I know what he meant

Off the top of my head Tier legs are the only slot with no accuracy stat. Seems dumb to waste them in a tier with accuracy stats everywhere.

And then? Remember that only 1 weapon over the 3 available from ToT has hit so in BiS gear you shouldn't have "hit problems"

We are talking about minimal improvement but I think legs off-set are a bit better than the helm (I made 2 character on askmrrobot to check differences).

[broodax]

If you have askmrrobot profiles, I'd like to see them. It would be interesting if normal mode gear was different enough that legs are the preferred piece.

The most important thing to note, though, is that Feather and Rage are definitely the BiS trinkets by any measure (except those circumstances when Shado-Pan is better than Rage).

[Shiira]

And then? Remember that only 1 weapon over the 3 available from ToT has hit so in BiS gear you shouldn't have "hit problems"

There are four two handers in t15, and the council sword is the easiest one to get hold of.

A normal council sword and feather of ji kun have 2574 hit between them. That's still 1544 after reforging out of it. The only strength ring that doesn't have hit on it is from ra-den. Our tier gloves and helm have hit on them.

It's very easy to have hit problems in this tier before you start getting close to bis gear.

[dkdk]

There are four two handers in t15, and the council sword is the easiest one to get hold of.

A normal council sword and feather of ji kun have 2574 hit between them. That's still 1544 after reforging out of it. The only strength ring that doesn't have hit on it is from ra-den. Our tier gloves and helm have hit on them.

It's very easy to have hit problems in this tier before you start getting close to bis gear.

There is also a non-hit ring from Oondasta as well, I managed to pull that down when i was already at like 11% hit and using a 470somehting pvp ring just because it didn't have hit.

I've worked my way down to 8.88% hit with 5 pieces that have hit, 2 are tier, 1 is the weapon, 1 is thunderforged feather and 1 is thunderforged back. So pretty much can't replace anything until I pull down a new weapon or get a new back.

[Deleted]

There are four two handers in t15, and the council sword is the easiest one to get hold of.

A normal council sword and feather of ji kun have 2574 hit between them. That's still 1544 after reforging out of it. The only strength ring that doesn't have hit on it is from ra-den. Our tier gloves and helm have hit on them.

It's very easy to have hit problems in this tier before you start getting close to bis gear.

I'm not counting the polearm tho, expertise-mastery sucks for anything else than blood

But we are talking about BiS, we are not talking about which weapon is easier to get, in fact the BiS weapon is the sword, a totally random drop...

[Deleted]

in fact the BiS weapon is the sword, a totally random drop...

which makes me a seriously sad panda

[Shiira]

If we are ignoring suboptimal things we might as well forget we can spec anything other than unholy.

[Deleted]

which makes me a seriously sad panda

I saw some discussion about whether to include this in the BiS list a while back for exactly that reason.

Although I have to say i'm getting seriously pissed off at 10m currently because my team hasn't seen a single 2h drop (including 3 people using coins on every possible 2h drop boss) since release. Seriously FML when it comes to drops this tier.

@Shiira: Unholy only really pulls way ahead when you're using FB so I personally find the 'optimal' a bit discussion when you can be waiting on loot to make a spec worthwhile.

[Shiira]

Tell me about it, feather doesn't exist.

Neither do two handers.

[Deleted]

If we are ignoring suboptimal things we might as well forget we can spec anything other than unholy.

You know better than me what BiS means...

I saw some discussion about whether to include this in the BiS list a while back for exactly that reason.

The hc BiS list includes, for example, the HC TF chest from Ra-Den, enough said.

[Erishkigal]

People worry too much about BIS, It only matters when you're farming for the next tier and even then it gets invalidated on the next tier release anyways. Immediate upgrades are much more useful for progression.