Jaina Proudmoore, Important?

[Northem]

No, she's with the Alliance now, along with the Kirin Tor and Dalaran.

Briefly.

I'm quite sure that when Garrosh is dead (which Blizzard forbid) the Kirin Tor with Jaina to its head will return to betray the Alliance, turning their back to them towards neutrality.

Dalaran will be traveled by dirty sons of the Horde again, do not hesitate it even for a single moment.

---------- Post added 2013-04-16 at 04:08 PM ----------

Onestly, after Wotlk I expected to see her as the queen of Stormwind.

That role is reserved for the Queen Calia

---------- Post added 2013-04-16 at 04:10 PM ----------

Does this mean (from what we know) That Jaina infact does more for the Alliance, than most other Alliance leaders do?

It sounds pathetic to say, but unfortunately it is so ...

[Deleted]

On a side note, does anybody like the idea of a high king or the alliance?

No, because the Alliance was never about that. The Alliance was always a federation of races, each different both working together because of similar standards and similar problems. They were united as doing, even in Classic when the night elves were the odd ones, they never used to make weapons to use on all the living and the dead (like forsaken) to say that you needed a strong leader to keep them in check. None of the Alliance factions have true hatreds for the others, sure maybe the stormwind humans think the gilneans were cowards and the gilneans think the stormwind ones where (for not killing all orcs) but it wasn't something that would make the two sides plot the end of one another as Sylvannas had her plague developed.

Plus, if anything, if they wanted to make the High King a Supreme Military Commander, name him that. Not High King. And have him act like a military commander, though he isn't the one I'd have taken for a military commander of the alliance any day. I'd take Shandris Feathermoon, I'd take Bolvar, I'd take Halford Wyrmbane as supreme military leaders of the Alliance, not some former gladiator that can't even fix his kingdom and people are starving because of it but he still finds time to build statues of himself

[Arrashi]

No, because the Alliance was never about that. The Alliance was always a federation of races, each different both working together because of similar standards and similar problems. They were united as doing, even in Classic when the night elves were the odd ones, they never used to make weapons to use on all the living and the dead (like forsaken) to say that you needed a strong leader to keep them in check. None of the Alliance factions have true hatreds for the others, sure maybe the stormwind humans think the gilneans were cowards and the gilneans think the stormwind ones where (for not killing all orcs) but it wasn't something that would make the two sides plot the end of one another as Sylvannas had her plague developed.

Plus, if anything, if they wanted to make the High King a Supreme Military Commander, name him that. Not High King. And have him act like a military commander, though he isn't the one I'd have taken for a military commander of the alliance any day. I'd take Shandris Feathermoon, I'd take Bolvar, I'd take Halford Wyrmbane as supreme military leaders of the Alliance, not some former gladiator that can't even fix his kingdom and people are starving because of it but he still finds time to build statues of himself

Think about it that way. At least they didnt made him into immortal god-emperor of alliance/azeroth (yet).

[Deleted]

Jaina is a good character, problem is the only 3 Alliance heroes that are actually doing something in this xpac are human (Jaina, Varian, Anduin).

[grisset]

OP: Play through the Thunder Isle, and then come back and re-evaluate your opinion

[Darmalus]

I'm sorry, when has she EVER been neutral?
It's neutral to funnel troops into the barrens, wipe out civilian towns and lay siege to Mulgor?
It's neutral to openly help the night elves against the Horde?
She's never been neutral. She has always been a liar and a hypocrite.

[Deleted]

Dwarves - Magni never did anything then got crystalized

I must disagree... what about the Ashbringer? He forged him itself.

To Jaina: I think she will very help against Orgrimmar and get back relationship with Thrall after fight, because Thrall himself will too help.

[darqhur]

I'm sorry, when has she EVER been neutral?
It's neutral to funnel troops into the barrens, wipe out civilian towns and lay siege to Mulgor?
It's neutral to openly help the night elves against the Horde?
She's never been neutral. She has always been a liar and a hypocrite.

I'm with this. This thread is predicated on ignoring all of the alliance who appeared from dustwallow marsh to the gates of Mulgore. She built a highway to deliver troops from her docks into the middle of horde territory. Jaina wasn't neutral and she enabled bad things.

[Octavius]

Briefly.

I'm quite sure that when Garrosh is dead (which Blizzard forbid) the Kirin Tor with Jaina to its head will return to betray the Alliance, turning their back to them towards neutrality.

Dalaran will be traveled by dirty sons of the Horde again, do not hesitate it even for a single moment.

---------- Post added 2013-04-16 at 04:08 PM ----------



That role is reserved for the Queen Calia

---------- Post added 2013-04-16 at 04:10 PM ----------



It sounds pathetic to say, but unfortunately it is so ...

Ahaha maybe, If she's still alive, Varian could marry her. May be further another action of unit in the Alliance. However Yes, dalaran likely will turn neutral because Blizz loves The Horde. More precisely, orcs. Make piece with it.

---------- Post added 2013-04-16 at 08:45 PM ----------

No, because the Alliance was never about that. The Alliance was always a federation of races, each different both working together because of similar standards and similar problems. They were united as doing, even in Classic when the night elves were the odd ones, they never used to make weapons to use on all the living and the dead (like forsaken) to say that you needed a strong leader to keep them in check. None of the Alliance factions have true hatreds for the others, sure maybe the stormwind humans think the gilneans were cowards and the gilneans think the stormwind ones where (for not killing all orcs) but it wasn't something that would make the two sides plot the end of one another as Sylvannas had her plague developed.

Plus, if anything, if they wanted to make the High King a Supreme Military Commander, name him that. Not High King. And have him act like a military commander, though he isn't the one I'd have taken for a military commander of the alliance any day. I'd take Shandris Feathermoon, I'd take Bolvar, I'd take Halford Wyrmbane as supreme military leaders of the Alliance, not some former gladiator that can't even fix his kingdom and people are starving because of it but he still finds time to build statues of himself

Not entirely true, Terenas was High King and de-facto leader of the Alliance.

[Deleted]

Think about it that way. At least they didnt made him into immortal god-emperor of alliance/azeroth (yet).

Well said yet... but I think they reserved that role for Anduin, and for him to be that for both factions

---------- Post added 2013-04-16 at 10:04 PM ----------

Not entirely true, Terenas was High King and de-facto leader of the Alliance.

You know, good you pointed that out. I always wondered, was he a de-facto leader of all the human kingdoms or was he a ruler of the humans + the high elves, dwarves and gnomes. Asking because I don't see the high elves giving more then some troops (and even that they didn't really) at the time, gnomes as we know were stuck with their trogg problem so we have no clue if they considered him as leader, and this only leaves dwarves.

Overall, that's what I'm confused about, was Terenas a High King of all human kingdoms or truly of the Alliance, including high elves, dwarves and gnomes?

[Darmalus]

Ahaha maybe, If she's still alive, Varian could marry her. May be further another action of unit in the Alliance. However Yes, dalaran likely will turn neutral because Blizz loves The Horde. More precisely, orcs. Make piece with it.

I keep hoping it gets blown to bits by Garrosh showing off why we NEED to unite to defeat him. You thought the iris-powered manabomb was bad? Garrosh's new sha-cannon makes it look like a firecracker, and he plans on using on on everyone who doesn't bend their knee to his new world order! The raid is a race against time before it charges up and he atomizes another city.

[Octavius]

Well said yet... but I think they reserved that role for Anduin, and for him to be that for both factions

---------- Post added 2013-04-16 at 10:04 PM ----------


You know, good you pointed that out. I always wondered, was he a de-facto leader of all the human kingdoms or was he a ruler of the humans + the high elves, dwarves and gnomes. Asking because I don't see the high elves giving more then some troops (and even that they didn't really) at the time, gnomes as we know were stuck with their trogg problem so we have no clue if they considered him as leader, and this only leaves dwarves.

Overall, that's what I'm confused about, was Terenas a High King of all human kingdoms or truly of the Alliance, including high elves, dwarves and gnomes?

You've got a point, it is a good question. We don't know, blizzard never clarified it. Furthermore, Terenas wasn't the military leader, which is the new supposed role Varian took on.

---------- Post added 2013-04-16 at 09:13 PM ----------

I keep hoping it gets blown to bits by Garrosh showing off why we NEED to unite to defeat him. You thought the iris-powered manabomb was bad? Garrosh's new sha-cannon makes it look like a firecracker, and he plans on using on on everyone who doesn't bend their knee to his new world order! The raid is a race against time before it charges up and he atomizes another city.

Oh yes I agree with you.

[Combatbutler]

Overall, that's what I'm confused about, was Terenas a High King of all human kingdoms or truly of the Alliance, including high elves, dwarves and gnomes?

I guess he controlled the other human kingdoms to a degree ,though I doubt he had great influence on the non humans, Quel'thalas for example didn't even bother to send their king or Prince, all they got was Alleria, who wasn't even ranger general. Not to mention it is hinted in beyond the dark portal, that humans distanced themselves from their non human allies.

[Octavius]

I guess he controlled the other human kingdoms to a degree ,though I doubt he had great influence on the non humans, Quel'thalas for example didn't even bother to send their king or Prince, all they got was Alleria, who wasn't even ranger general. Not to mention it is hinted in beyond the dark portal, that humans distanced themselves from their non human allies.

Yes, the alliance scattered after the invasion of Draenor.

[Combatbutler]

Yes, the alliance scattered after the invasion of Draenor.

Yeah though the rift began already prior to this, the Alliance of the past was never a tight knit group, it was an alliance of necessity. Though that seemed to have changed during the wow storyline.

[Octavius]

Yeah though the rift began already prior to this, the Alliance of the past was never a tight knit group, it was an alliance of necessity. Though that seemed to have changed during the wow storyline.

Yeah and after the disapparence of the sons of lothar, Terenas officially lost support of Greymane, Anestarian and even his friend Thoras Trollbane. Many problems arose, for ex the internament sistem. Only magni, antonidas and varian stood with Lordaeron.

[TheDangerZone]

Now that Jaina Proudmoore has pulled back to Dalaran together with Kalegcos, does she no longer have interest in the Alliance, but purely to try and safe Dalaran from what might happen in the clash between the Horde and The Alliance? Is she only worring about keeping Dalaran as a safe haven, and a "free zone" for everybody, and keep Dalaran out of the war?

In other words, is she important to the alliance anymore?

Is this post coming from, like the past, or something??

---------- Post added 2013-04-16 at 09:52 PM ----------

My gripes have been discussed in other threads, but these are my two major ones.

1) To my mind, the "Trials of the High King" thing is being approached from entirely the wrong direction. Illustrating the unity and compassion for co-races is an interesting theme to pursue for the Alliance, but it should be done from the perspective of having Varian develop as a result of working with the other racial leaders. In simple terms, Tyrande should have been the teacher, and Varian the student. -He- should have been the one advocating the risky course of action, with Tyrande advocating the slow and steady method that ultimately wins the day; culminating in Varian gaining a newfound respect for Tyrande and the Kaldorei, and using that respect and knowledge to help strengthen the bonds between Night Elves and the other races.

2) How Tyrande was portrayed in A Little Patience was pretty stupid as well. If we look at her history, particularly in Warcraft 3, we see that while in many instances she is quick to act she never does so without good reason. She has demonstrated on a number of occasions that when patience and care are required, she can deliver. Furthermore, she has demonstrated that she holds the absolute loyalty of her Sentinels, and if she decides on a course of action they -will- follow her and not a Human King. Having her disagree with Varian's order, then just stay put and whine for the remainder of the scenario, then reach a "miraculous epiphany" was just awful writing.

That is a pretty simple, yet effective solution. It would have made Varian look like a dunce, granted, but it totally fits on the wider theme of him learning when to lead, and when to listen. If this are the trials of the High King, it is him the one that should learn something.

And the way the forced Tyrande to be that out of touch. She is very religious and respectful of others beliefs, she would have understood the importance of a sacred place more than Varian should. Making Tyrande the rash one being teached by Varian only tells us how AWESOMEMEGAFOXYHOT he is instead of telling us anything about Tyrande.

I think that the "Trials of the High King" would have been much more interesting if they were about the other leaders imparting their wisdom to Varian -Blood in the Snow, although better, doesn't accomplishes that either- It would be the perfect foil, the perfect juxtaposition to Garrosh shutting everyone out. I keep thinking of the scenes in the end of Avatar: The last Airbender where Aang connects with his past lives and receives their wisdom; he ultimately takes a different road, but that is only possible through the answers he got.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry, when has she EVER been neutral?

When she helped the Horde kill her own father and defeat Kul'tiras which was threatening Orgrimmar? She didn't join the Horde, but she did attack the Alliance. So I guess that's an act of someone who is neutral.

[Aucald]

Jaina's current lietmotif is basically a 180-degree turn on whatever the conflict du jour is. She was previously a peacemaker trying to bring the Horde and Alliance together. Garrosh decimates Theramore and she (understandably) 180's and becomes the Horde's worst enemy to the point of trying to commit a similar genocide on Orgimmar. After being talked down from this, and then elected to the head of the Kirin Tor (in perhaps the most boneheaded moment of WoW lore, IMO), she returns to her roots of seeming pacifism in refusing Varian's request to evict the Sunreavers from Dalaran and the Kirin Tor due to the Kirin Tor's neutrality.

Then some independent Horde agents make use of Sunreaver connections in Dalaran to breach Jaina's wards and steal the Divine Bell from Darnassus. Jaina undergoes another personality-bending 180 and slaughters Aethas Sunreaver's personal guard and imprisons him with scant (or absolutely no) evidence of his involvement in the Horde plot. Her forces, under Vereesa Windrunner's command, then proceed to run rampant through Dalaran killing both Horde/Sunreaver combatants and non-combatants alike. The brief showdown between Lor'themar and Jaina at the last stage of the Isle of Thunder pretty much shows Jaina is still after Aethas' head. I'm sure Jaina will 180 again shortly, probably during the events of the Siege of Orgimmar later on in MoP - probably at its culmination and the dethroning of Garrosh as Warchief.

[Trassk]

Jaina's current lietmotif is basically a 180-degree turn on whatever the conflict du jour is. She was previously a peacemaker trying to bring the Horde and Alliance together. Garrosh decimates Theramore and she (understandably) 180's and becomes the Horde's worst enemy to the point of trying to commit a similar genocide on Orgimmar. After being talked down from this, and then elected to the head of the Kirin Tor (in perhaps the most boneheaded moment of WoW lore, IMO), she returns to her roots of seeming pacifism in refusing Varian's request to evict the Sunreavers from Dalaran and the Kirin Tor due to the Kirin Tor's neutrality.

Then some independent Horde agents make use of Sunreaver connections in Dalaran to breach Jaina's wards and steal the Divine Bell from Darnassus. Jaina undergoes another personality-bending 180 and slaughters Aethas Sunreaver's personal guard and imprisons him with scant (or absolutely no) evidence of his involvement in the Horde plot. Her forces, under Vereesa Windrunner's command, then proceed to run rampant through Dalaran killing both Horde/Sunreaver combatants and non-combatants alike. The brief showdown between Lor'themar and Jaina at the last stage of the Isle of Thunder pretty much shows Jaina is still after Aethas' head. I'm sure Jaina will 180 again shortly, probably during the events of the Siege of Orgimmar later on in MoP - probably at its culmination and the dethroning of Garrosh as Warchief.

Still, this sums up why my interest in Jaina as a character has just eroded away. I use to like her, because she was a consistant and steadfast character, well respected, and even horde leaders referred to her with respect. You knew where you stood with Jaina and so her character was one you could count on when shit hit the fan. The complaint people had against her was the same complaint that had against Thrall, claiming both were to pacifist for there liking.. EVEN WHEN Both characters have been on the front line in some of the best parts of the story.
But no, because Jaina wasn't being aggressive towards the horde, they decided they had to fuck her character up to be on par with that of Garrosh, and have her develop a yoyo of a personality that shifts personas to suit the plot as it happens.

Instead of being a steady character with some standing morals and integrity, Jaina's just become another tool, and yet people make the same mistake with her recently development as they have done with Garrosh, they mistake her sudden aggression and personality disorder as a good thing, claiming its great because it suits there want to see bad shit happen.

You need structured characters to make the story flow, having characters whos only purpose is to serve as a plot device and shift personality just when the story needs an antogonist or protagonist when it suits doesn't make for good character development, and eventually I just end up saying F*** off, I'm bored with this poor use of a once good character.

It makes me laugh how people learned nothing from Garrosh, who try to write it off as 'blizzard giving into the whiners and ruining him'. So its ok to screw up a once steady character for your intrests, but when they decide to get rid of a character whos a complete mess thats not alright?