It's not Nostalgia.

[Otimus]

But they haven't made a less popular game. If they made something like BC now, the result would be catastrophic.

You are probably laboring under the delusion that things were great in BC, and that that situation could have been maintained forever. What you fail to understand is how unsatisfying BC was to most players, and how much subscription churn the game has experienced. That was masked by all the new players coming in. There's a reason 20M or more people are ex-WoW players, and it's not because they are hardcores.

More like it's because they either got bored of leveling, and quit. Or they got to level cap, saw what it took to do anything else, and quit.

Seriously. Blizzard has, in more or less their own words, have said this is why they made the changes they did. They had immense trouble holding onto a steady base of the non-hardcores, and that's why everything was changed like it was. The "hardcore" has been, always will be, and is not enough to carry the game. It's probably around ~a million right now, and was probably about that, more or less, at it's height. You can't make content JUST for those people. The fact that they, pretty much, HAVE for the last 8 years kind of shows that something is seriously messed up with Blizzard, and, as some person on this forum has said before, has a severe case of wanting to be loved by the fanatics, rather than doing what's good sense. Hell, the "hardcores" or what have you, get a zillion benefits over anyone else still, and YET, they freaking STILL complain about this stuff. Like, what the hell do you people want? A widespread linear difficulty? Yeah, I'd like that too. That'd be good. That'd help a lot of things, but that's not happening, because on the one end, you have hardcores enforcing and starting this whole thing where the end cap is everything, which pretty much brought us to where we are today.

[hawtlol]

It's not so much that they made the game worse. But they changed the game in a way where it lead to the community falling apart and is now basically every man for himself with a little extra help from some random people.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Seriously, you are a minority. As such, sorry but you're not important.


Sunwell was cleared by iirc 1% of the BC population. Thus it is the epitome of producing content for a minority.

Yeah, I've heard that cute little saying many times. But I don't really believe it. 1% of characters? Maybe. But thats just Sunwell. It was a difficult raid.

This is why this thread was made. I'm a minority, sure, but that doesn't mean my desires boil down to ill-memory and "nostalgia"

[Osmeric]

Yes, Blizzard started catering to the people with the money, instead of you know, making a good solid game. What makes me so special? I didn't really sihn up for a game revolving around convenience. My only choice is get over it or leave.

You have defined your personal preference in games as what makes a game "good". I imagine this little bit of mental jujitsu lets you avoid thinking about just how ridiculously selfish you are being.

"Good solid game" is a subjective notion. It cannot be otherwise. What makes your definition of "good solid game" more real than that of other customers?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

More like it's because they either got bored of leveling, and quit. Or they got to level cap, saw what it took to do anything else, and quit.

Seriously. Blizzard has, in more or less their own words, have said this is why they made the changes they did. They had immense trouble holding onto a steady base of the non-hardcores, and that's why everything was changed like it was. The "hardcore" has been, always will be, and is not enough to carry the game. It's probably around ~a million right now, and was probably about that, more or less, at it's height. You can't make content JUST for those people. The fact that they, pretty much, HAVE for the last 8 years kind of shows that something is seriously messed up with Blizzard, and, as some person on this forum has said before, has a severe case of wanting to be loved by the fanatics, rather than doing what's good sense. Hell, the "hardcores" or what have you, get a zillion benefits over anyone else still, and YET, they freaking STILL complain about this stuff. Like, what the hell do you people want? A widespread linear difficulty? Yeah, I'd like that too. That'd be good. That'd help a lot of things, but that's not happening, because on the one end, you have hardcores enforcing and starting this whole thing where the end cap is everything, which pretty much brought us to where we are today.

What benefits do hardcores get? Uhh being more dedicated and generally better? Thats self discipline and effort, not benefits from Blizzard.

[Tomana]

Yeah, I've heard that cute little saying many times. But I don't really believe it. 1% of characters? Maybe. But thats just Sunwell. It was a difficult raid.

This is the point. A raid that costs a LOT to develop in art and other assets. And only 1% of people saw it. It was the extreme point.

---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 09:34 PM ----------

It's not so much that they made the game worse. But they changed the game in a way where it lead to the community falling apart and is now basically every man for himself with a little extra help from some random people.

This is one of the things which is impossible to solve completely. Either you use random tools and it leads to community issues, or you don't and it leads to unhappy players.
Maybe if WoW was developed today with "shardless" technology like TES:Online, there would be a solution. But WoW tech is 10 years old.

[Otimus]

Yes, Blizzard started catering to the people with the money, instead of you know, making a good solid game. What makes me so special? I didn't really sihn up for a game revolving around convenience. My only choice is get over it or leave.

---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 03:29 PM ----------



Not doing Kara was by choice. It was easily puggable. Trash pulls were harder than the first 3 or so bosses.

and not many people did it even still. Not many people even hit the level cap :x All in all, that's some major problems for content that's expensive to make.


Also, you bought into, at the time, history's most casual MMO. What were you expecting to happen, things to remain static? This is Blizzard. Their whole MO is taking an existing idea, simplifying it, adding some silly lore that's the copy of random movies and books, with pop culture references, and catering to the lowest common denominator, with some sprinklings on there for the hardcore. It's what they've done ever since they made console games. It's what Starcraft is, what Diablo is, what Warcraft is. Mayhaps you should of picked Everquest back in the day instead :x

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

You have defined your personal preference in games as what makes a game "good". I imagine this little bit of mental jujitsu lets you avoid thinking about just how ridiculously selfish you are being.

"Good solid game" is a subjective notion. It cannot be otherwise. What makes your definition of "good solid game" more real than that of other customers?

Its subjective, yes. But am I being more selfish than anyone else? Every change is a tug of war. Make heroics easier than walking while chewing gum? Hardcores say " baddies have normal modes" and Casuals say " Elitist assholes have challenge modes"... well... sorry, but in no way imaginable could you argue that 5 minute aoe heroics make a good solid game.

Did you know they are discussing that once you have 1 max level, you can skip leveling alts? Would that make you change your mind about the current "good, solid game" at all? Maybe you just have bad nostalgic feelings about leveling. Or are you one of those types that are in favor of progress for the sake of it?

[Otimus]

What benefits do hardcores get? Uhh being more dedicated and generally better? Thats self discipline and effort, not benefits from Blizzard.

I'm defining "hardcore" as anyone who's doing any sort of raiding outside of LFR (Which, frankly is pretty hardcore. It's a historically and presently a minority activity!)

They get:

To see content before everyone else
Better items
The only source for items to make current craftables, which they can hock for a ton of gold
More gold, doing things as a guild rewards FAAAAAAAAR more than doing it without. Far, far, far more.
Achievements
Mounts
Pets

What does the casual get? To see content, convenience, and some pity items? OH GOD, NO! NOT THAT!

[adventurer]

Good thread and good points.

Traveling vs flying = flying sucks, no immersion, only convenience. But game is not work, right?
More flight patches = less immersion of world, more convenience.
Yes even tallent trees were more immersive, they didn't work properly but more immersive for sure.
World PVP was awesome and much more immersive.

Problem with moving to more convenience is because WoW world is not dynamic. So repeating everything is very boring.

World SHOULD be really dungerous. Not like now: " OMG he ganked me, I am gonna report to blizz that he wasted 5 min of my time so they make ganking less possible"

I think Blizzard listen to players too much, whiners made that game very easy and much more boring and killed world PVP.


SO I DON'T think that Vanilla was better in sense of content, balance, etc., but it was much more immersive for sure. Burning Crusade was immersive too. Nether Drake quests were awesome and not everyone had nether drake. World pvp was awesome. I enjoyed so much World PVP near Taren Mill. Moving through Dark Portal was so immersive.

Of course everything had less triangles - but you could fly only at 68 or 70 as I remember, so everything was big and much more unknown. World was much more immersive and unknown till we get flying.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

and not many people did it even still. Not many people even hit the level cap :x All in all, that's some major problems for content that's expensive to make.


Also, you bought into, at the time, history's most casual MMO. What were you expecting to happen, things to remain static? This is Blizzard. Their whole MO is taking an existing idea, simplifying it, adding some silly lore that's the copy of random movies and books, with pop culture references, and catering to the lowest common denominator, with some sprinklings on there for the hardcore. It's what they've done ever since they made console games. It's what Starcraft is, what Diablo is, what Warcraft is. Mayhaps you should of picked Everquest back in the day instead :x

That must have been by choice. Kara was easy and in no way was hitting 70 exclusive. I've never met someone that hasn't hit leveling cap. I've also never heard Blizzard say anything like that either.

Yes, I was hoping Blizzard would keep their design philosophy.

---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 03:40 PM ----------

I'm defining "hardcore" as anyone who's doing any sort of raiding outside of LFR (Which, frankly is pretty hardcore. It's a historically and presently a minority activity!)

They get:

To see content before everyone else
Better items
The only source for items to make current craftables, which they can hock for a ton of gold
More gold, doing things as a guild rewards FAAAAAAAAR more than doing it without. Far, far, far more.
Achievements
Mounts
Pets

What does the casual get? To see content, convenience, and some pity items? OH GOD, NO! NOT THAT!

No, these aren't benefits. Anyone that wanted to could earn these things.

[Otimus]

It's not so much that they made the game worse. But they changed the game in a way where it lead to the community falling apart and is now basically every man for himself with a little extra help from some random people.

Did the community REALLY fall apart? I mean, most of the people who did the "hardcore" stuff, still do the "hardcore stuff" in mostly the same way they've always done it. People who didn't have anything to do at all, now have things to do. You can, and most certainly have, that convenience makes it so a lot of people don't have to be social. But I'd just as well argue that those people probably wouldn't of been social regardless. A big problems people forget and neglect to get a feel for, is that the "community" or whatever, of their server, in the past, was small. Secluded, and only consisted of a small amount of people. Most people weren't a part of that community, and a lot of it is cherry picked memories where so-and-so did so-and-so with a few people when they had a guild, or knew guild members, or something. Most people didn't do that. They just leveled, got to cap, didn't see an avenue for themselves, and were just quiting or making alts. That's a problem. If they had kept it the way it was, they'd of kept a treadmill of new players qo play for a while and quit for a while, until the casual word of mouth just soured, and you'd of seen a drop off far worse than the little drop off Cataclysm had.

---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 07:46 PM ----------

That must have been by choice. Kara was easy and in no way was hitting 70 exclusive. I've never met someone that hasn't hit leveling cap. I've also never heard Blizzard say anything like that either.

Yes, I was hoping Blizzard would keep their design philosophy.

---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 03:40 PM ----------



No, these aren't benefits. Anyone that wanted to could earn these things.

What WOULD a benefit be, then?

[Osmeric]

Its subjective, yes. But am I being more selfish than anyone else?

Yes. You want the game to cater to a small minority, that happens to include you. This is as opposed to those of us who want the game to cater to the majority, which happens to include us.

At this point, if you want to continue arguing, you can either deny that your position is a minority position (which is factually absurd), or claim that you should receive preferential treatment even through you are in a small minority (which is selfish and entitled.)

At best, you're going to get a small slice of hardcore content that piggybacks off investment made in easier content (as normal/heroic modes take advantage of having their art assets paid for by all the LFR usage.) Asking for more crosses the line.

[Otimus]

Yes. You want the game to cater to a small minority, that happens to include you. This is as opposed to those of us who want the game to cater to the majority, which happens to include us.

At this point, if you want to continue arguing, you can either deny that your position is a minority position (which is factually absurd), or claim that you should receive preferential treatment even through you are in a small minority (which is selfish and entitled.)

At best, you're going to get a small slice of hardcore content that piggybacks off investment made in easier content (as normal/heroic modes take advantage of having their art assets paid for by all the LFR usage.) Asking for more crosses the line.

Exactly this!

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

What WOULD a benefit be, then?

Thats my point. There is no real benefits. You can earn better loot if you want. You can earn more gold or whatever else.

---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 03:52 PM ----------

Yes. You want the game to cater to a small minority, that happens to include you. This is as opposed to those of us who want the game to cater to the majority, which happens to include us.

At this point, if you want to continue arguing, you can either deny that your position is a minority position (which is factually absurd), or claim that you should receive preferential treatment even through you are in a small minority (which is selfish and entitled.)

At best, you're going to get a small slice of hardcore content that piggybacks off investment made in easier content (as normal/heroic modes take advantage of having their art assets paid for by all the LFR usage.) Asking for more crosses the line.

Yes, so we are being equally as selfish? Okay then. It doesn't matter that i am a minority, or you're a majority. Would the things you want take things away from me? Thats called being selfish. Or are you uncaring, as long as the "majority" is catered to?

No, I'm sorry, asking for a more challenging leveling or heroic experience isn't crossing the line.

I would also like to see the numbers on your stats. Only a small minority want a more challenging, less convenient leveling experience? Where are the numbers on that exactly?

[adventurer]

When playing in old times and I met enemy character - I get a lot of adrenalin, my heart start beating like crazy - because I know - 90% chances that we will fight till death one of us (or both). That is so awesome to meet some ork while playing human and try to kill him. It is so awesone even if ork kills you , you fill like you met real enemy.

But now it is just joke. If they see you approaching - and they don't want to fight or see that they can't kill you - they just mount up and fly away. Game should make players feel strong emotions - even bad emotions - like hate. Strong emotions - it is what makes MMORPG good.

You can't have strong emotions if you have nothing to lose.

[Coombs]

Yes. You want the game to cater to a small minority, that happens to include you. This is as opposed to those of us who want the game to cater to the majority, which happens to include us.

At this point, if you want to continue arguing, you can either deny that your position is a minority position (which is factually absurd), or claim that you should receive preferential treatment even through you are in a small minority (which is selfish and entitled.)

At best, you're going to get a small slice of hardcore content that piggybacks off investment made in easier content (as normal/heroic modes take advantage of having their art assets paid for by all the LFR usage.) Asking for more crosses the line.

Selfish and entitled isn't decided by numbers. Both sides are being selfish, and they both feel entitled. The saddest part is that WoW isn't hard, and has never been that hard when it comes to raiding except for a few encounters that were legitimately tough. The only things that prevented the majority from seeing the content was their ineptitude, scheduling with a guild's raid times, or lack of people skills. But a lot of dicks got into raids so I don't see that as being the problem.

[melodramocracy]

Yes. You want the game to cater to a small minority, that happens to include you. This is as opposed to those of us who want the game to cater to the majority, which happens to include us.

At this point, if you want to continue arguing, you can either deny that your position is a minority position (which is factually absurd), or claim that you should receive preferential treatment even through you are in a small minority (which is selfish and entitled.)

At best, you're going to get a small slice of hardcore content that piggybacks off investment made in easier content (as normal/heroic modes take advantage of having their art assets paid for by all the LFR usage.) Asking for more crosses the line.

In this forum at least, there's just as many more requests to make difficult content easier as there is for the opposite. Hardcores have their (incredibly small) sliver of pie, and likely simply fight to not have another bite taken out of it.

The rest have 95% of the pie, and want the entire thing.

[Shuji V2]

Personally, after a reroll after a long period of not playing WoW, I feel Blizzard has raped World of Warcraft in to oblivion.

My biggest problem with the game is that it's way too easy, everything is the same/does the same and you're being forced into your progression path by Blizzard. I don't like how the new 'talents' and spell system is set up, it doesn't leave enough room to use your imagination to come up with the ideal build. It takes away the freedom of choosing what you want and building your character. Going level up in WoW isn't as interesting any more as it used to be. Normally you could spend a talent point per level or go and buy some spells. Nowadays it's all handed to you and feels mindless. Getting a talent once every 15 levels is also I find a very boring design. Also, the first 4/5 tiers are also very boring and bland by design.

Also stripping classes of spells they once had just so they have lesser buttons to use and making everything even easier. I mean come on, all you do is open your spell book, read what spells you are supposed to use, bind them and go faceroll. Instant win.

And apperently there is a mana cap as well now. Jeesh, band-aid fix after band-aid fix.

Besides that, the whole social aspect has been blown out of the game due to guild perks, LFD and LFR. I mean, I'm in a guild with about 50 people online. Yet, I only use it for the guild perks just as the others do so there isn't any friendly talk at all. Doing dungeons and raids is boring as hell were everyone pulls ahead of the tank without any consequence and just facerolls through. Then when you're done, there's maybe one person who says "thanks" and leaves and that is pretty much the only thing that has been said all run.

In my opinion, the game feels more like an easy singleplayer game which could have been hosted on facebook for it's casualness. I thought it was supposed to be an MMO and an RPG? Yet I don't sense the epic feeling of being in a huge open world when LFR/LFD and the rest of the current design make the world so small. People who you play with could have been NPC's for all I care, there's just no interaction required for anything.

As far as RPG goes, removing all these abilities, dumbing down talent systems and so on makes it a very boring progression and it just doesn't leave a sense of building character.

Blizzard shouldn't have caved in to the crying masses. They should have drawn their own path and let people play their game and be appreciated for that. Instead of making a game for those who can never be pleased anyways.

You can give them instant gratification now, but it won't last long. All they'll do is demand more and more out of it until there is absolutely nothing left at all. That's also an aspect I liked about the 'old WoW'. You had a larger ramp up time (as expected with RPG's) and the gratification when you successfully reached your goal was just so much bigger and higher. Now all it does it make my face twitch a bit and move on.

And to people saying, I pay money for it so I deserve this and that just as much as any other. If you believe in this philosophy you might as well buy a coke and demand that it would taste like a sprite. See how ridiculous that sounds? If you don't like coke, then don't buy it. No need to ruin the flavor for those who love it. Perhaps you need to try a pepsi or go back to lemonade all together.

[adventurer]

Awesome post. Truth.

Personally, after a reroll after a long period of not playing WoW, I feel Blizzard has raped World of Warcraft in to oblivion.

My biggest problem with the game is that it's way too easy, everything is the same/does the same and you're being forced into your progression path by Blizzard. I don't like how the new 'talents' and spell system is set up, it doesn't leave enough room to use your imagination to come up with the ideal build. It takes away the freedom of choosing what you want and building your character. Going level up in WoW isn't as interesting any more as it used to be. Normally you could spend a talent point per level or go and buy some spells. Nowadays it's all handed to you and feels mindless. Getting a talent once every 15 levels is also I find a very boring design. Also, the first 4/5 tiers are also very boring and bland by design.

Also stripping classes of spells they once had just so they have lesser buttons to use and making everything even easier. I mean come on, all you do is open your spell book, read what spells you are supposed to use, bind them and go faceroll. Instant win.

And apperently there is a mana cap as well now. Jeesh, band-aid fix after band-aid fix.

Besides that, the whole social aspect has been blown out of the game due to guild perks, LFD and LFR. I mean, I'm in a guild with about 50 people online. Yet, I only use it for the guild perks just as the others do so there isn't any friendly talk at all. Doing dungeons and raids is boring as hell were everyone pulls ahead of the tank without any consequence and just facerolls through. Then when you're done, there's maybe one person who says "thanks" and leaves and that is pretty much the only thing that has been said all run.

In my opinion, the game feels more like an easy singleplayer game which could have been hosted on facebook for it's casualness. I thought it was supposed to be an MMO and an RPG? Yet I don't sense the epic feeling of being in a huge open world when LFR/LFD and the rest of the current design make the world so small. People who you play with could have been NPC's for all I care, there's just no interaction required for anything.

As far as RPG goes, removing all these abilities, dumbing down talent systems and so on makes it a very boring progression and it just doesn't leave a sense of building character.

Blizzard shouldn't have caved in to the crying masses. They should have drawn their own path and let people play their game and be appreciated for that. Instead of making a game for those who can never be pleased anyways.

You can give them instant gratification now, but it won't last long. All they'll do is demand more and more out of it until there is absolutely nothing left at all. That's also an aspect I liked about the 'old WoW'. You had a larger ramp up time (as expected with RPG's) and the gratification when you successfully reached your goal was just so much bigger and higher. Now all it does it make my face twitch a bit and move on.

And to people saying, I pay money for it so I deserve this and that just as much as any other. If you believe in this philosophy you might as well buy a coke and demand that it would taste like a sprite. See how ridiculous that sounds? If you don't like coke, then don't buy it. No need to ruin the flavor for those who love it. Perhaps you need to try a pepsi or go back to lemonade all together.