New Hostess owners will refuse to hire union workers

[Deleted]

In fairness it can be used with "veritas", "libertas" or "justitia". I was unaware of that.

I actually like the libertas version. It suits my philosophy quite well. I would imagine some people on this board would be equally comfortable adding "aequitas" to that phrase as well.

Not bothered by the "et pereat mundus" part?
Freedom and Justice, but also Equality, Truth, and whichever other abstract value you could think of, should not be made into idols. Freedom was to serve man, not man to serve freedom. Same for Justice, Equality, and whatever else.

[Fugus]

why do i get the feeling the fugus works someplace like wal-mart or radioshack. don't mistake my dislike for unions as support for companies that shit on their workers as a standard operating practice.

Actually I do work at Walmart at the moment, I have said that before. I have worked at Walmart for about 8 months now, I have also worked at a Woodmill, doing Steel Fabrication, at a Convenience Store, an Auto Shop and worked for myself with a friend for about 4 years running our own shop doing electrical and electronic repair.

I have seen good unions, I have seen bad unions and I have seen no unions and I can tell you that, by far, the worst I have ever seen was no union, would take the bad union any day of the week over the places that had none at all but if you have a good union, then you have a great place to work at most times, even if the work stinks.

Now what I prefer to see is a company good enough where a union isn't even needed, but not everywhere is like that and chances are if you have your employees trying to unionize, then they have a reason to.

---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 11:05 AM ----------

So let me get this straight.

If a company goes bust because the union labor is incredibly expensive and they can't compete with companies that DON'T use union labor, it's the management's fault.

But if a company thrives because they don't use union labor.... they're a bunch of assholes?

Well it seems, then, that the only way to win for everyone is to be competitive in prices while maintaining a union shop. Let's ask General Motors how they do it. (Hint: They didn't).

Nothing to get straight since that isn't what happened, they didn't go bust because of union labor, that is where you got it wrong and at which point the rest of the post falls apart.

[Monoxyde]

Now what I prefer to see is a company good enough where a union isn't even needed, but not everywhere is like that and chances are if you have your employees trying to unionize, then they have a reason to.

i think that's a small minority in this day and age. most unions are forced upon the workers from the situations i have seen friends and family involved in. i'm sincerely sorry you have to work for wal-mart currently, i will never ever set foot in one of those places again due to their business practices.

[HolgerDK]

That's awesome! Free market wins over communism. Liberal capitalism-haters will certainly be enraged by this and whenever they're mad it means America is doing the right thing. I'd love to see all unions abolished and union leadership jailed on RICO charges.

Liberty Prime is that you?

[Ozymandius]

What exactly is a violation of liberty?

Letting only the privileged get health care, and letting everyone who falls on hard times die?

I'm beginning to think "liberty" and "freedom" can be replaced with rich white male privilege, considering the context I hear them in all the time.

It is a violation of liberty to FORCE someone to pay for an item, good, or service for someone else. If a person on the street came up to you every week or 2 weeks and took money from you so he could go buy things for himself or others, that would be called theft. When the government does it, people accept it as the norm and assume that government is a force for good. It is not. I am not saying there is not a place for oversight, but I am saying there should be NO place for unfunded mandates. Violating one person's liberty in order to provide something to another is wrong and should be criminal, no matter if it is an individual doing it, or the government.

[Verain]

Once bitten, twice shy.

[Monoxyde]

Once bitten, twice shy.

ahhhh hair bands

[theredviola]

I enjoy watching people bash on unions because they clearly have no idea what kind of good unions have done in this country. While they're not with out fault, what system is completely free of abuse and corruption in this country?

[Deleted]

It is a violation of liberty to FORCE someone to pay for an item, good, or service for someone else. If a person on the street came up to you every week or 2 weeks and took money from you so he could go buy things for himself or others, that would be called theft. When the government does it, people accept it as the norm and assume that government is a force for good. It is not. I am not saying there is not a place for oversight, but I am saying there should be NO place for unfunded mandates. Violating one person's liberty in order to provide something to another is wrong and should be criminal, no matter if it is an individual doing it, or the government.

You mean, like forcing people to pay for police forces or for the army?

[Fugus]

i think that's a small minority in this day and age. most unions are forced upon the workers from the situations i have seen friends and family involved in. i'm sincerely sorry you have to work for wal-mart currently, i will never ever set foot in one of those places again due to their business practices.

Same, I honestly refuse to shop their as do some others I work with, see it as feeding the beast. I have yet to see anyone there who honestly enjoys except for maybe 2 people who was there for years (some working on 20 years) and honestly their jobs haven't changed and they got in before the pay was capped and make more than the managers due to it, also the ones who actually have to be careful cause others at their pay scale have been getting the feeling they have to walk on eggshells to keep from getting fired so they can be replaced by a temp making less than half what they do.

I was actually pro-union before this just from seeing what happened with the local Smithfield plant in a before and after with unions and watching them actually fight the Good Year plant around here a couple years back and when I got to work for places without unions and watching these people flat out getting exploited doing back breaking work, it was pure horrible. Got to watch a certified welder working for $12 an hour and no benefits cause the company knew they had him over a barrel due to some personal issues of his even though he had worked for them for 5 years and proven himself.

[Cthulhu 2020]

It is a violation of liberty to FORCE someone to pay for an item, good, or service for someone else. If a person on the street came up to you every week or 2 weeks and took money from you so he could go buy things for himself or others, that would be called theft. When the government does it, people accept it as the norm and assume that government is a force for good. It is not. I am not saying there is not a place for oversight, but I am saying there should be NO place for unfunded mandates. Violating one person's liberty in order to provide something to another is wrong and should be criminal, no matter if it is an individual doing it, or the government.

Do I need to pull out the entire list of what the US currently subsidizes through taxes, or will this one suffice?

Water
Huge list of various food sources
Power
Natural Gas
Automobile Gasoline
Cars
Roads
Public Parks

Boy your argument kind of falls apart when you realize that not only are you already paying for a shit ton of stuff for other people, but countries with public health care have some of the best in the world.

[Gheld]

How can you refuse to hire union workers? Workers don't start out in a union. You can't just be "I'm a union worker."

Workers collectively decide at some point throughout their employment whether or not they want their shop to join a union, and once the unions there then it's there. But they are non union as soon as they quit that job. So there is no such thing as "union workers". There are only "union shops" and "non union shops."

[Ozymandius]

I enjoy watching people bash on unions because they clearly have no idea what kind of good unions have done in this country. While they're not with out fault, what system is completely free of abuse and corruption in this country?

I do not think you understand that many of us who do not like unions agree that at one point and time unions were a good thing. What most people fail to understand is how corrupt many have become.

---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 10:15 AM ----------

Do I need to pull out the entire list of what the US currently subsidizes through taxes, or will this one suffice?

Water
Huge list of various food sources
Power
Natural Gas
Automobile Gasoline
Cars
Roads
Public Parks

Boy your argument kind of falls apart when you realize that not only are you already paying for a shit ton of stuff for other people, but countries with public health care have some of the best in the world.

How does the argument fall apart by you giving examples of violation of liberty? I am not stating that roads, parks etc are a bad thing, but I am saying that taking money from one citizen and supplying phones etc to another with it is a violation of liberty.

[Laize]

Nothing to get straight since that isn't what happened, they didn't go bust because of union labor, that is where you got it wrong and at which point the rest of the post falls apart.

Well the unions accused the management of being shit and the management accused the unions of being shit. I read that the company's plants were all operating around 50% capacity. That's entirely unacceptable, it is, indeed an indicator of corporate mismanagement.

However the alternative was closing down several plants and laying off probably over half their workforce. If you think the union didn't have a hand in that NOT happening then I'm not sure what to tell you.

[Monoxyde]

I enjoy watching people bash on unions because they clearly have no idea what kind of good unions have done in this country. While they're not with out fault, what system is completely free of abuse and corruption in this country?

i enjoy watching people blindly support something that stopped being relevant in most cases decades ago. yes, unionization is why we aren't all working in horrible conditions. i hate to break it to you though, that was done by unions in generations passed. most unions in their current state do things like put ambitious people on a wait list while a drug addict gets to the head of the line because his father is a union rep.

[Cthulhu 2020]

So let me get this straight.

If a company goes bust because the union labor is incredibly expensive and they can't compete with companies that DON'T use union labor, it's the management's fault.

But if a company thrives because they don't use union labor.... they're a bunch of assholes?

Well it seems, then, that the only way to win for everyone is to be competitive in prices while maintaining a union shop. Let's ask General Motors how they do it. (Hint: They didn't).

If you look at Hostess's long line of incredibly bad business decisions, it becomes extremely obvious why unions have almost nothing to do their bankruptcy, and really are just a scapegoat.

[redsunrising15]

Unions had their day in the past. Nowadays they're transformed from underpaid suppressed workers to overpaid, greed mongers.

The Chicago teachers union struck just a few months ago because they all wanted a $10,000 raise, when they were already making about 45% more than the average family who attends their school. Screw the next generation, give us monies!


That being said, I don't see the point of refusing to hire union workers. Just don't hire enough to cripple your business if they decide to think they're underpaid.

[The Madgod]

But that's not the case here. When Hostess went bust, who cried for the workers? No one, that's who. Who cried for the Twinkies? Everyone.

I cried for the workers. I hate twinkies. I'd rather bake my own diabetus.

To be on topic though, unions were created by the people so that their rights and their efforts were abused by those with more power than them. Whatever they are today, I'm pretty sure they still represent that idea and I worry about the new workers for Hostess if they are going to outright refuse unionization. Perhaps I'm a jaded anti-corporatist. Perhaps not.

If a system has become broken but its original intent was pure then it isn't right to just destroy that system. You have to change it so that it goes back on track.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Well the unions accused the management of being shit and the management accused the unions of being shit. I read that the company's plants were all operating around 50% capacity. That's entirely unacceptable, it is, indeed an indicator of corporate mismanagement.

However the alternative was closing down several plants and laying off probably over half their workforce. If you think the union didn't have a hand in that NOT happening then I'm not sure what to tell you.

You've made A LOT of posts saying "well yeah, they did this, and they did that, and they did this, and they did that" and you basically kind of throughout the thread have touched on all of their extremely shitty management points, then end every post with "but it's still the union's fault!"

[Fugus]

I do not think you understand that many of us who do not like unions agree that at one point and time unions were a good thing. What most people fail to understand is how corrupt many have become.

I personally see it from both ends on this one. I see how bad many have become, but I have seen just how much worse it can get without them.

The reason many have gotten so bad is for the same reason many of the companies have, bad thing about power, it attracts the worst people and they typically end up chasing these positions, in this case, Union leader.... If we could just figure out a way to keep them out and actually get more skilled and qualified people in them positions who are in it for what is best and not just for what gives him the biggest personal paycheck regardless of anything else, then we could get better unions. But bad unions, just like bad companies, can be formed from good ones due to a chance in leadership....