The most broken spell in game - Killing Spree

[Lith]

I urge you to point out other cooldowns that function similarly. By that I mean cooldowns that, if used at the "wrong time" end up outright killing you and/or your raid team.

Bloodlust.

Battle Rezzing as well.

Killing Spree isn't the issue, maybe a tad more control would be nice, or avoiding pets. But Combats issue is when it doesn't have cooldown available. Maybe a little bit of a damage boost for single target is what is needed.

[Squirl]

I think the point is that combat rogues aren't exactly killing dps meters even if killing spree could be used on cooldown, which it can't. Fixing killing spree could bring up combat numbers and not really require much effort. There's also the fact that the jumping around makes it virtually worthless in pvp.

Combat is much better than most people seem to think. I'd share my logs, but my guild went private this tier for some reason. Mut's better for most fights, but it's fairly marginal unless the execute is especially valuable.

Killing Spree is also a pretty small part of your overall damage (roughly 5-6%); sanding down the sharp corners isn't going to be an amazing boon to combat's DPS as even eliminating a 30% deficiency would only be a 2% (and 30% is really high; you don't have to sit on it that long on any fight this tier).

Also, I don't think that's the point at all, as Draigars said.

[D3athsting]

Bloodlust.

Nice troll, bad timing of BL can cause raid dps loss and boss enrage leading to wipe and this is because of the philosophy behind all cooldowns: use them when they could result in a strong dps increase (trinket procs, potions, bl, increased dmg taken from boss etc), on the other hand kspree seems to work differently: use it when u're sure that nothing can kill you during the time you have no control on ur toon...

While you explain it, "calling troll" is frowned on on these forums. If you see a poster you believe to be trolling, please report it and move on. -Mugajak

[loki504]

I urge you to point out other cooldowns that function similarly. By that I mean cooldowns that, if used at the "wrong time" end up outright killing you and/or your raid team.

priest grip a tank to move the boss the wrong way will most of the time kill the raid. or when a priest is low hp and swap life with a tank can easly kill a tank.

---------- Post added 2013-05-08 at 12:51 PM ----------

Nice troll, bad timing of BL can cause raid dps loss and boss enrage leading to wipe and this is because of the philosophy behind all cooldowns: use them when they could result in a strong dps increase (trinket procs, potions, bl, increased dmg taken from boss etc), on the other hand kspree seems to work differently: use it when u're sure that nothing can kill you during the time you have no control on ur toon...

and if you die its a dps loss but will not kill the raid.

[Neazy]

Combat is much better than most people seem to think. I'd share my logs, but my guild went private this tier for some reason. Mut's better for most fights, but it's fairly marginal unless the execute is especially valuable.

Killing Spree is also a pretty small part of your overall damage (roughly 5-6%); sanding down the sharp corners isn't going to be an amazing boon to combat's DPS as even eliminating a 30% deficiency would only be a 2% (and 30% is really high; you don't have to sit on it that long on any fight this tier).

Also, I don't think that's the point at all, as Draigars said.

So because it's not a game breaking dps loss you're ok with having abilities you can't use? You're also conveniently ignoring the pvp implications of fixing killing spree.

I don't like the comparisons to other dps cooldowns either. Killing spree is a lot different than rapid fire or arcane power or one of those. You don't sit on those abilities very often, and when you have to, it's because you can't attack anything important or there's about to be a transition where you can't attack anything important. Killing spree is different because 1) it's an attack, not a buff and 2) it can kill you even when standing there doing your normal rotation wouldn't kill you.

The best comparison to killing spree would be a hunter's barrage: both have longer cooldowns than other rotation abilities, both last 3-4 seconds, and both hit multiple targets. If barrage randomly ported the hunter across the room, hunters would complain. And they should, because that would be stupid.

[Haloswin]

why would u use it at all the worst possible times? there wasnt even a need for this thread...anyone with half a brain wouldnt use it when u are saying u do.

I think the point some are trying to make is that it comes with a penalty. Imagine if you couldn't use Vendetta at times, not because it's a sub-optimal time to use it but rather because if you do, it's going to kill you. When you consider that Combat relies on several factors to line up in order to get the most of out its abilities it's just a flawed mechanic.

[Squirl]

So because it's not a game breaking dps loss you're ok with having abilities you can't use? You're also conveniently ignoring the pvp implications of fixing killing spree.

I'm not ok with an ability you can't use, like KSp on Ultraxion (later fixed by glyph). There are no fights this tier where you can't use it the entire fight. Sure, you can't pop it at the most retarded times and expect to live, as demonstrated by OP. It's a cooldown that you have to think about and that requires awareness to use. I like that.

As far as PvP, Combat will never be competitive because it lacks the control of Subt. Even now, most of the time you can use the 10yd range and CC to target a single person. Making it target only your target will make it easier to use in that way, but not wholly better. Also, if it doesn't jump you to your target, have fun getting kited during your KSp.

EDIT: Apparently KSp worked on Ultraxion. The point of my statement still stands though. A better example would be Subt on Ultraxion; no BS, no ShS, no Ambush. That's bad spec/encounter design, but not really relevant.

[Neazy]

I'm not ok with an ability you can't use, like KSp on Ultraxion (later fixed by glyph). There are no fights this tier where you can't use it the entire fight. Sure, you can't pop it at the most retarded times and expect to live, as demonstrated by OP. It's a cooldown that you have to think about and that requires awareness to use. I like that.

So because it's not completely unusable it's ok? I disagree. We just have different opinions here.

As far as PvP, Combat will never be competitive because it lacks the control of Subt. Even now, most of the time you can use the 10yd range and CC to target a single person. Making it target only your target will make it easier to use in that way, but not wholly better. Also, if it doesn't jump you to your target, have fun getting kited during your KSp.

What? Combat has all the same control abilities as sub. If anything, combat has better control with the 8 sec kidney shots you can pull off with revealing strike. All combat lacks is 1) armor penetration and 2) an on-demand burst cd like shadow dance. Killing spree could fix #2 if it wasn't so unreliable.

Also killing spree only lasts 4 seconds. It shouldn't be hard to stick on a target to 4 seconds to use your burst. Shadow dance is twice as long and you can avoid being kited during that.

[shadowboy]

I'm not ok with an ability you can't use, like KSp on Ultraxion (later fixed by glyph).

It appears that you didn't actually play combat during dragon soul. Killing spree was usable on every fight in cataclysm, and is usable on every fight in mists (although some fights in mists require great care to use killing spree effectively--garalon & horridon immediately come to mind).

[D3athsting]

It appears that you didn't actually play combat during dragon soul. Killing spree was usable on every fight in cataclysm, and is usable on every fight in mists (although some fights in mists require great care to use killing spree effectively--garalon & horridon immediately come to mind).

kspree was dangerous on spine coz could hit and kill a nearby tentacle while dpsing tendon causing great trouble to ur raid and was a mess on some platforms of madness where you got teleported over the arm you were dpsing.

[Squirl]

It appears that you didn't actually play combat during dragon soul. Killing spree was usable on every fight in cataclysm, and is usable on every fight in mists (although some fights in mists require great care to use killing spree effectively--garalon & horridon immediately come to mind).

I'm pretty sure KSp put you off the edge on Ultraxion. I could be wrong though. DS is a blur at this point.

And no, I didn't play Combat for much of Cata. Non-daggers never, ever dropped so I played Assassination for most of it. I'm having the opposite problem this xpac.

[D3athsting]

I'm pretty sure KSp put you off the edge on Ultraxion. I could be wrong though. DS is a blur at this point.

No, it worked fine.

[shadowboy]

kspree was dangerous on spine coz could hit and kill a nearby tentacle while dpsing tendon causing great trouble to ur raid and was a mess on some platforms of madness where you got teleported over the arm you were dpsing.

That doesn't mean you couldn't use killing spree. I never used it on the tendons myself, only on the amalgamations. I used adrenaline rush for the tendons. Glyphed AR lasted 20 seconds, which is the duration of the burning tendon burst window, leaving not much room for killing spree.

[Snow Goose]

Completely agree that using it at the wrong time is a problem with the player not the ability. A good DPS is supposed to use their CDs at the right time for optimal DPS. That is why we have posts instructing when it is right to hold off Vendetta if the time to kill would mean it wouldn't be up for execute etc. If you use it in an unsafe way then it is the same as using Burning Rush as a lock when you are on low health or a Monk rolling off the platform etc (getting in range of your target is just as required for DPS!). And besides, just because it is a DPS ability doesn't grant you impunity to making sure you are using it at the right time. I don't know if Blizz tune the spec based on 100% usage but I would very much doubt it (regardless of how well it is or isn't performing right now).

The thing I don't like about it and which I think ought to be fixed is that it does sometimes bug, but I am guessing that given how infrequent the bugs are, they are hard to spot in testing and hence there are edge cases that didn't come up. The fact that it is such a mobile spell means it would be hard to test *all* scenarios. I too have found myself DPSing air on Megeara once, annoying yes, but if you do it once, you can fix for the next time. That's the thing about the spell, you can address nearly all of the issues with proper positioning.

I have to admit though, I do run with a cancel macro when I go combat (which I am hoping still works because I haven't tried it lately lol).

With regard to the DPS aspect, there are many other CDs in the game that need you to use at the right time (all of them?) , if you didn't - everyone would just macro everything to their main ability and be done with it. The cost of getting it wrong with KSpree is higher, but like Squirl says, surely it is that which makes it interesting and in fact a skill? Hell, even with Vendetta at the very least you need to be popping it on a target you plan to DPS for the next 20 or 30 sec. TBH complaining about a potential DPS loss from KSpree use (or lack thereof) seems a tad petty when you compare it to Sub rogues or Ferals on those bosses that Blizz forget to give a "backside" to ^^. Every fight though plays to some class or specs strengths and not others, that's sort of where the "flavour" that is still in the game is and yes I do realise and agreed that some of those fights are by far TOO flavourful and extremes of that sort are not interesting, but as long as I can get a raid spot and play my rogue, I am happy, KSpree never stopped me doing that. On the odd occasion I killed myself with it, my raid team have laughed at me, I learn, don't repeat it and it is all ok, maybe I am just lucky with my guild!

BTW re the Ultraxion thing, KSpree did work fine, I know this because I killed myself on that fight when they switched the talents and gave me ShS and I moved my KSpree binding to fit the ShS in and instead of using the always reliable and working KSpree, I popped ShS instead and fell to my death lol.

[Demeia]

I'm not ok with an ability you can't use, like KSp on Ultraxion (later fixed by glyph). There are no fights this tier where you can't use it the entire fight. Sure, you can't pop it at the most retarded times and expect to live, as demonstrated by OP. It's a cooldown that you have to think about and that requires awareness to use. I like that.

I know from you're posts you are a fairly elite rogue; I point out this skill is going to be used by players considerably--mammothly really--less skilled than you. They are simply going to die. While I understand you are eager, and correct, to support skills that maximize dps for those at the top end of the skill curve, I think this is not a good skill because without the right experience it can just outright kill you.

That cannot be a good design.

Bad rogue loses dps because they mistime their cooldown, fair enough. Bad rogue dies because they mistime their ability, not so fair.

[Enhshamanlol]

It appears that you didn't actually play combat during dragon soul. Killing spree was usable on every fight in cataclysm, and is usable on every fight in mists (although some fights in mists require great care to use killing spree effectively--garalon & horridon immediately come to mind).

Did you play combat during t11 when cata droped? Magmaw was instant death with killing spree.

But killing spree is outdated and needs to be fixed. Or make it single target and you don't move at all during it.

[shadowboy]

Combat is much better than most people seem to think. I'd share my logs, but my guild went private this tier for some reason. Mut's better for most fights, but it's fairly marginal unless the execute is especially valuable.

Killing Spree is also a pretty small part of your overall damage (roughly 5-6%); sanding down the sharp corners isn't going to be an amazing boon to combat's DPS as even eliminating a 30% deficiency would only be a 2% (and 30% is really high; you don't have to sit on it that long on any fight this tier).

Also, I don't think that's the point at all, as Draigars said.

Not all of killing spree's damage contribution comes directly. It also boosts your autoattack and poison damage for the duration. Assuming a 65sec effective cd on killing spree, its uptime is ~5%, and that's 5% of the time spent with your autoattacks and poisons doing 50% more damage.

[Chult]

Killing Spree just requires a bit of restraint. You need to be aware of what's happening or about to happen before you use it blindly. Many of the situations you mention can be avoided by looking at a dbm timer. Give it a couple weeks and you will instinctively known when to and when not to use it. It is frustrating tho when it goes wrong and you are punished for using it.

Pretty much this. ^

If you just blindly hit the button when it lights up every time, don't blame the ability for your death. You can also use this ability to cheese knockbacks and other effects you couldn't otherwise.

[Adrim]

Bad rogues play this game too. Blizzard accepts that, embraces it, lets them get gear in LFR. If this is killing those bad rogues and making their life miserable, it's a bad talent. The fact that a good rogue who understands the fights can get around it does not make it a good skill. Decent players are just going to make mistakes and get themselves killed with a talent they really need to use on cooldown.

It's hideous.

I don't think I did a single Deathwing LFR where some rogue didn't die from either this or Shadowstep or god knows what else. They really just need to rethink the rogue kit if they want the flexibility to have enormous bosses or elaborate rooms.

[TechGnosis]

Pretty much this. ^

If you just blindly hit the button when it lights up every time, don't blame the ability for your death. You can also use this ability to cheese knockbacks and other effects you couldn't otherwise.

I've been Assasination pretty solid since Wrath came out, but went back to Combat just for the Lich King fight because of this. Properly timed KS on the Valkeries ment I was one person who did not need to be rescued (same with warlocks). Soon as they dropped you, pop KS and you bounce around on them until they fly back to the platform and land safely on it.

But the beginning of Wrath was really hard on our Combat rogue. We used to have an active bet pool on which new bosses KS would get him killed. I think the two shining examples were Thaddius (positive, negative, positive, negative, positive, negative.... hey, whys everyone dead?) and Kologarn. (There's no behind him to land on so you fall to your doom). But to be fair that boss also killed both of our tanks as well. Charging him was also not the brightest of ideas apparently.

I'm pretty sure KSp put you off the edge on Ultraxion. I could be wrong though. DS is a blur at this point.

No, it worked fine.

Actually there was a short time where it would indeed get you killed, as well as charging the boss (our poor bear tank did this 3x out of habit)