Should East Prussia / Kaliningrad Oblast be returned to Germany? Become independent?

[Tokru]

Russia can keep that piece of land. Germany doesn't need even more run-down-by-soviets territory. It's the same with Poland. Had it been returned some years after the war people had been happy. But today the difference is so huge, that it would be a giant money sink to bing it to the same level.

[Ravenblade]

I wonder what kind of Germans are asking for its return or are arguing that it was morally wrong. It was already an exclave after WWI. The Germans have themselves to blame for losing that territory after WWII and it was their lack of morals which undid their rights to keep it.

Apart from the U.S. state choice being a totally non-sense one I can't think of any other reason than it staying what it already is unless Russia ceases any claim over it. Even then I'd think it should be up to the inhabitants to decide whether they want to be independant or join some else country. It's very unlikely that they would want to join Germany however and I doubt Baltic countries as well as Poland would not like to see another German encroachment. A small free city state like Liechtenstein would probably work. It's all hypothetical anyway because Russia is currently using Kaliningrad as strategic doorstopper against NATO and EU encroachment.

[OmniSkribe]

Just give us Lithuania and Belarus so Kaliningrad will be connected to the rest of the country.

[Wildtree]

I wonder what kind of Germans are asking for its return or are arguing that it was morally wrong.

Hmmm......
What kind of Germans..
I voted Other... It's one of the rare things where I am simply not able to come to a proper conclusion.

Let me start with this. I am German..
In my living room hangs a beautiful map of East-Prussia. It's all in German... Ostpreussen. It's surrounded with codes of arms. All the towns, rivers, regions, all named in German. Why is it there? It's where my wife's father was born. She's German... He (passed away a few years ago) was German.
It IS German history. It was German territory. The takeover through the Soviets was a very dark chapter for many Germans. Like the OP says, nearly 2 mio evacuated. Many did not get out there in time. The lives of many more millions have been impacted by this. Families torn apart forever. The numbers of those killed by the Soviets after the war can only be guessed. But one thing is sure, it's been a lot. Kind of tiring to read always about the Nazi's and how it was the Germans own fault blabla..... We've as a nation paid dearly for it. We paid in monetary values, we paid in territorial values, and we paid with the lives of millions of innocent civilians as well.
So yes, there is a case to be made, that supports East-Prussia belongs to Germany. Ethically case.

But then, now.... after so many decades with the German population eradicated, there's not much sense in having the territory given back. It should go to the next closest maybe.. Either Lithuania or Poland. East-Prussia united with West-Prussia seems a logic solution.
But I think, there's still too much fear existent that the Germans will rise again. And Prussia was historically always a prime example for Germany's high discipline and military strength, long before the Nazi Regime came to be.

[Elegiac]

Can we boot the Turks from Anatolia and give it back to Greece? :P

Irredentism is an extremely stupid policy.

[Wildtree]

Can we boot the Turks from Anatolia and give it back to Greece? :P

Irredentism is an extremely stupid policy.

Truthfully I don't think that this is an issue.. There wont be a territorial change to that region. It's Russian, and I think it stays that way.
Plus, yes I agree with you.
The most negative example for that matter would be Israel. There we see it for decades what negative impact such territorial superficial mindset can produce.

[Deleted]

I think it should be given back to Germany, along with some of western Poland.

The borders of Germany and Poland were always temporarily until an agreement could be made. Germany still had claim on a lot of territory, yet a little while ago they decided to let Poland keep it just to be generous after what happened during WWII. But imo, these areas were taken from Germany through force and should be returned. Germany shouldn't remain sorry for what they did. Should they stay sorry until the end of time? Of course not. It's silly that they will throw away their own future just to keep appealing to people they might have hurt in the past.

So yeah, Germany should get some parts of western Poland back (especially Stettin, but maybe Posen and Breslau as well, but maybe that would be too much) And parts of Prussia should be returned as well imo. It has strong German cultural ties, it's just that Russia is occupying the area.

But, I don't think it's fair on Poland to lose so much territory, so for compensation I think they should gain some back from Belarus (which is the only remaining dictatorship in Europe so I don't really care about them). They were driven westward by the USSR, I think they should slightly return to their original location.

[Elegiac]

I don't think Germany would want East Prussia back at this juncture. A lot of people were angry about the Reunification.

[Deleted]

But then, now.... after so many decades with the German population eradicated, there's not much sense in having the territory given back. It should go to the next closest maybe.. Either Lithuania or Poland. East-Prussia united with West-Prussia seems a logic solution.
But I think, there's still too much fear existent that the Germans will rise again. And Prussia was historically always a prime example for Germany's high discipline and military strength, long before the Nazi Regime came to be.

At the least, it makes a lot more sense for it to go to Poland than for it to remain Russian, that's for sure.

[Wildtree]

I think it should be given back to Germany, along with some of western Poland.

The borders of Germany and Poland were always temporarily until an agreement could be made. Germany still had claim on a lot of territory, yet a little while ago they decided to let Poland keep it just to be generous after what happened during WWII. But imo, these areas were taken from Germany through force and should be returned. Germany shouldn't remain sorry for what they did. Should they stay sorry until the end of time? Of course not. It's silly that they will throw away their own future just to keep appealing to people they might have hurt in the past.

So yeah, Germany should get some parts of western Poland back (especially Stettin, but maybe Posen and Breslau as well, but maybe that would be too much) And parts of Prussia should be returned as well imo. It has strong German cultural ties, it's just that Russia is occupying the area.

But, I don't think it's fair on Poland to lose so much territory, so for compensation I think they should gain some back from Belarus (which is the only remaining dictatorship in Europe so I don't really care about them). They were driven westward by the USSR, I think they should slightly return to their original location.

Poland has West-Prussia. That would be the natural territory that belongs to Germany.
Yet it is not as easy as it seems.
There was a treaty made for good, and it was part of why Germany was even allowed to reunite as one, after the wall fell.
The fall and self liberation of East Germany wasn't the entire story. In order to be one country again, it required the allowance of the original allied forces.

---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 04:52 AM ----------

I don't think Germany would want East Prussia back at this juncture. A lot of people were angry about the Reunification.

Hell no..... We cannot afford another bankrupt province. The rebuilding of East Germany is already almost more than we can bear.

[Bloodfire]

East Prussia should become a U.S. state.
17 38.64%

I hope that most people voting for this did it for lulz, otherwise that shows the level of knowledge.
About territory, I don't think that this would work. It's Russian territory as a price for suffering during occupation years. I doubt they would give it back. Besides, German society still divides into West-East (I dnk how it sounds in German so sorry), so this would only exhale the current problem.
So NO.

[Deleted]

I want what the people there want. The majority there is Russian, so I can guess they can only wish for 2 choices, remain russian or go independent. I voted for them to become independent, though in the end they would have to decide that. I think they'd be better independent. The EU would try to be friendly with them and give them stuff so they don't go back to Russia, that's why I think them being independent might help them more.

Also lol at people voting for it to become an US state.

[Dezerte]

I think they should decide for themselves, where they want to belong to.

[Elegiac]

I think they should decide for themselves, where they want to belong to.

Self-determination is as stupid as irredentism.

[Sagittaria]

I'd go with return to Germany if it weren't for the fact that all the original German inhabitants are either long gone or died at the time it was taken. So seems like... kinda not much of a point.

[Wildtree]

You are correct Bloodfire....
The joke about how every Wessy (West German) pays 5 Euro for bricks to raise the wall up again, is still around and kicking. lol

[Ravenblade]

Hmmm......
What kind of Germans..
I voted Other... It's one of the rare things where I am simply not able to come to a proper conclusion.

Let me start with this. I am German..
In my living room hangs a beautiful map of East-Prussia. It's all in German... Ostpreussen. It's surrounded with codes of arms. All the towns, rivers, regions, all named in German. Why is it there? It's where my wife's father was born. She's German... He (passed away a few years ago) was German.
It IS German history. It was German territory. The takeover through the Soviets was a very dark chapter for many Germans. Like the OP says, nearly 2 mio evacuated. Many did not get out there in time. The lives of many more millions have been impacted by this. Families torn apart forever. The numbers of those killed by the Soviets after the war can only be guessed. But one thing is sure, it's been a lot. Kind of tiring to read always about the Nazi's and how it was the Germans own fault blabla..... We've as a nation paid dearly for it. We paid in monetary values, we paid in territorial values, and we paid with the lives of millions of innocent civilians as well.
So yes, there is a case to be made, that supports East-Prussia belongs to Germany. Ethically case.

But then, now.... after so many decades with the German population eradicated, there's not much sense in having the territory given back. It should go to the next closest maybe.. Either Lithuania or Poland. East-Prussia united with West-Prussia seems a logic solution.
But I think, there's still too much fear existent that the Germans will rise again. And Prussia was historically always a prime example for Germany's high discipline and military strength, long before the Nazi Regime came to be.

Heh, I am German as well, by mix of family lines Pomeranian-Huguenot. Specifically my grandma on mother-side is a displaced Pomeranian alongside her entire family clan which in part settled over near Bonn and she would still tell tales of her old region up to day and she would think of the Poles inhabiting her old family's farmlands as barbarians. She maintains that Pomerania should go back to Germany and the Poles should be driven out because them living there is morally wrong. I've had many lengthy debates with her about this saying that this all happens because Germany lost the war they had started and in wars you just don't lose on the scoreboard but on material side as well. Germany did not treat the conquered lands any different and if Germany had won anyone asking whether they could have their lands back out of morale reasons would have been met with a stern 'Nein!' as well. The consequences which Germany assumed to be righteous for the lands it conquered suddenly turned out to be consequences to bear with for themselves as well. It were exactly the same realities...just reversed and that truth was hard to learn -many until today still did not. It was unfortunate that it happened because not every citizen living in that area was a devout follower of the Nazi party a lot of them actually despised them yet in a war conquest isn't done via political questionnaire. I understand their grief but it's lost and over and that's why I don't understand persons like Mrs.Steinbach as well. If we are going that path what is stopping others from doing the same? Why stop at lands? How about reparations as well and where to stop? Should Austria demand concessions as well for the German-Austrian wars?

[Dezerte]

Self-determination is as stupid as irredentism.

I just don't feel it's not my place to dictate where they should belong to. Maybe because I simply don't know anything about that country.

[nyc81991]

Let the people vote on what they want to be. Best way to settle it in my opinion.

[Kalyyn]

I voted for US State just because I was so shocked to see the poll option. Then I was further shocked to see that it was the most popular option...

What the fuck am I missing here?