Is ToT too challenging causing the guild break ups?

[Alvito]

Calling 64740 people many out of potential millions is a joke. Relative to even the previous tier it's a joke. NORMAL IS TO FUCKING OVERTUNED AND HARD. Get it through your heads people.

You can't jump from 6474 guilds having a kill to saying that only 64,740 people have done it. Several guilds have multiple runs, hell a guild on one of my servers has 32 raids running, which is a mixture of 10 and 25 mans. You also have a bunch of people not in guilds or in other guilds brought in for kills that don't count towards their guilds tracking.

[Odina]

It is the most correct opinion one can have on the matter. So correct that it is virtually indistinguishable from fact. Ignorance on the part of the vocal minority will not changed this.

There is no correct or incorrect when you are speaking of opinions...

[celinamuna]

Short answer : no.

Long answer : No, it's not. I haven't seen many guilds break up because of the difficulty and not some internal drama.

[pallyopness]

im not even one of those guys saying ToT is faceroll easy...we had some issues and are starting heroics this week. If it was easier than it is now, whats the point in raiding, I like challlenges, I dont want shit handed to me. I want people to learn to get better over a simple nerf, otherwise there is no fulfillment from a boss being killed.

[Lethey Alexandros]

I fail to see how ToT is difficult if you are playing your class to its fullest. I can see it being hard if DPS is not actively trying to avoid unnecessary damage, if your tanks are not mitigating damage as much as they can, if your healers are haveing to waste mana on the above and have no mana to spare for damage spikes.

ToT is a very mechanic involved raid, you cant just stand there with one hand on your mouse and the other hand down your pants.

If you are not moveing out of damageing Abilities and AoE, not useing damage mitigation and support spells then you are simply underprepared for the raid so please try to understand that raid difficulty is not the same as player ineptness.

[Glorious Leader]

There is no correct or incorrect when you are speaking of opinions...

I suspect the medical profession would disagree on this matter. The tv doctor who advises you spend 19.99 on herbal remedies to cure your whatever ails you vs the actual doctor who gives you a diagnoses, a prescription and a medical opinion. One of these is clearly correct. In the same fashion my opinion on the matter is correct. You don' have to take it of course but that's okay you can use the herbal remedy.

[Schizoide]

ToT is unique. It is the only raid ever in the history of the game where two months in we still don't have enough heroic parses in WoL to examine class balance.

All we know is that guilds aren't submitting heroic kills to WoL. We don't know why, exactly. Maybe less people are raiding, or ToT heroic is harder than previous tiers, or for some reason everybody decided to set their parses private. But something is different this tier.

[Glorious Leader]

The best part of this comment is that you probably don't even realize who the vocal minority is on this particular subject.

The top end of raiders who say it's fine while guilds break apart, players get sat and the bottom end shows it's utter disdain and lack of interest in "normal" raiding.

[Deleted]

Well while it isn't to hard per se, my guild is usually losing one raider a week we then have to replace due to horridon wiping. it's been four weeks since we've killed a new boss. I want to keep trying, but people keep quitting.

So yeah, a dedicated, spirited, but -normal- guild like mine can't compete in -normal- modes and has to deal with serious attrition. And it's only the second boss!

I know this makes elitists happy, but keep it to yourselves please.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Normal is fine, guilds that are falling apart now aren't falling apart due to ToT. They were already collapsing. We're not a hardcore guild by any means (or we would be further than 12/12, we really should be at least 1/13 or 2/13 by now but we've run into the attendance boss combined with 2 of our mages looking at the meter instead of their character on durumu...) yet we're not having any sort of issues. We've actually started growing with ToT, we picked up 3 more raiders and have started a second 10man team. All the guilds I've been in that have collapsed did so for reasons ENTIRELY unrelated to the difficultly of the raids.

I find the majority of people raiding and stuck on stuff like horridon think that they are actually good players, they don't push themselves to do better every time (or rather at least 1-3 of the people in the raid aren't putting in effort, thus holding back the rest, it isn't so much as many people fail as a few people thus taking the rest down with them). They don't learn from their mistakes, they just think that it wasn't them who made a mistake. It isn't so much about being a bad player as it is about being a person who doesn't know how to find and fix their flaws, or even admit that the flaws exist. At least that is my view on this.

[Dead_MAX]

I belive it is one of the reasons. But i'm very happy about it, raids feel a little epic again and it is not a faceroll like a LFR.

[Lethey Alexandros]

Well while it isn't to hard per se, my guild is usually losing one raider a week we then have to replace due to horridon wiping. it's been four weeks since we've killed a new boss. I want to keep trying, but people keep quitting.

So yeah, a dedicated, spirited, but -normal- guild like mine can't compete in -normal- modes and has to deal with serious attrition. And it's only the second boss!

I know this makes elitists happy, but keep it to yourselves please.

It sucks to lose raiders, it really does but this is where as a guild you need to seek out more dedicated raiders and explain the situation. If they leave like that then they where bound to leave you mid progression on another boss and not stick around to actually form a nice raid team.

[Chrispotter]

Calling 64740 people many out of potential millions is a joke. Relative to even the previous tier it's a joke. NORMAL IS TO FUCKING OVERTUNED AND HARD. Get it through your heads people.

Hi. Thank you for talking in caps, it will make me feel even better about me proving something to you now.

25198 have killed the first boss on normal, as the 1st boss on normal is bassically "if you have more than 5 people in your raid the boss is dead" we can assume this is the total number of Guilds attempting to raid Normal ToT.

24406 of these are 10 mans, = 244,060 Players.
2027 of these are 25 mans = 50,675 Players.

we can take from that approx 300,000 Players have attempted To kill horridon on normal. Of these 18208 x 10 = 182080 + 1725 x 25 = 43125 which gives a total of 225,205 players. 225205 out of 300,000 isnt enough for you? OK BRO. ToT normal is easy and if you fail you are simply not a "game" person and should go look at butterflys outside or something idk. Do what you want but my suggestion is your free time is wasted wiping on Horridon normal, one of the easiest bosses in Mists of Pandaria.

[Grym]

I agree.

And to that poster I would say, try running it again with only low 500 gear...it's still quite challenging

My guild does 3 runs a week (not 3 nights, 3 actual runs).

2nd run people are probably around 510, do some HCs no problem (in 1, sometimes 2 nights).

3rd run are mainly with low 500 or lesser geared people with a few PUGs on top, clear no problem (in 1 night).

It is challenging to the extend that you can't ignore mechanics and lol, but if you follow the mechanics even with less than 500 ilvl isn't actually too bad.

[pallyopness]

imho as a raid leader/guild leader in a 25 man progression guild since tbc.......players get sat because of a lack of wanting to do research on getting better and expect others to do the work for them.....honestly i would personally take the time to help anyone on this forum get better if they took the time to ask.....hell, i would even throw them into our second raid which is MADE for people to get better and learn if they xferred to my realm. So im not an asshole by any means, i just think frustration and lack of knowledge is what holds players back...a game requires skill that must be attained through learning....if you dont want to learn you will always be left behind.

[Glorious Leader]

Find more dedicated raiders. Why should the quality of content be lowered to apease the mentality of "If I cant have it now I dont want it."

Quality of content isn't measured solely by difficulty. But I guess that's the only possible interpretation one could have if one was a heroic raider or shared their mindset.

I've been advised in no uncertain terms that any discussion of this topic must be carried on with nice words and a cloying manner. Well this is not a fight that can be fought as such and since I'd rather not risk infraction I think I'll pass on this one. Normal raiding is DYING. Udderstand this. It's DYING because of hardcores who insist that the only measure of "quality content" is difficulty. Wake up people. Get your heads out of your asses. You need more people raiding normals.

[Aaldarius]

I think it's because ToT has some fights with one-hit kill/wipe mechanics in which make everyone in the raid have to know the mechanics.

There are a lot of raiders I've raided with over the years that purposely avoid responsibility, simply because they just don't feel like doing that specific mechanics. In ToT those people are getting exposed - well, from what I have seen in my raids and server.

Durumu, pretty much, could be the sole fight that people might symbolize that. My guild struggled with him initially because only five us, would do life drains. As well as if we, five, didn't get the beams then it would be a wipe too. Those not caring to know fight mechanics are the ones that are dropping purple in your kite path, getting blasted, not pumping sufficient DPS because they took the wrong but easier survivable path. And I guess you can say they are the same people dying in tornado, I just wish my guild would learn to rez them after the tornado phases.

T11 had maybe Elegon, Wind Lord, Amber Shaper w/Mutated, and Sha of Fear's Breath of Fear. (Mainly normal mode speaking) And even those T11 fights were not one shots, just a case of everyone hoping that "that guy/girl" does not screw up.

[celinamuna]

ToT is unique. It is the only raid ever in the history of the game where two months in we still don't have enough heroic parses in WoL to examine class balance.

All we know is that guilds aren't submitting heroic kills to WoL. We don't know why, exactly. Maybe less people are raiding, or ToT heroic is harder than previous tiers, or for some reason everybody decided to set their parses private. But something is different this tier.

What ? Looking at raid bots we have plenty of data. Plus WoL didn't come out till Wotlk or later (unless i'm mistaken) which leaves out half the raids in the game (vanilla/bc) from the table.

[Glorious Leader]

Hi. Thank you for talking in caps, it will make me feel even better about me proving something to you now.

25198 have killed the first boss on normal, as the 1st boss on normal is bassically "if you have more than 5 people in your raid the boss is dead" we can assume this is the total number of Guilds attempting to raid Normal ToT.

24406 of these are 10 mans, = 244,060 Players.
2027 of these are 25 mans = 50,675 Players.

we can take from that approx 300,000 Players have attempted To kill horridon on normal. Of these 18208 x 10 = 182080 + 1725 x 25 = 43125 which gives a total of 225,205 players. 225205 out of 300,000 isnt enough for you? OK BRO. ToT normal is easy and if you fail you are simply not a "game" person and should go look at butterflys outside or something idk. Do what you want but my suggestion is your free time is wasted wiping on Horridon normal, one of the easiest bosses in Mists of Pandaria.

You haven't proved a damn thing. Go ahead and go back and look the same figure for DS and for the first tier. I'll wait while you do. When you realize how shitty those figure are compared to the first tier (itself not even really amazing) then you can get your head out of your ass and maybe realize a thing or two about raiding.

ToT normal isn't "easy" bro. It's to fucking hard for the majority of raiders (let alone players) in the game. Some of us recognize this. The developers recognize this. The achievement is called AHEAD OF THE CURVE. I'm done. You people can plug your ears and say it's fine but the whole thign will blow up around you.

[Magemaer]

Difficulty is fine. Guilds break up. People realize their team is bad when confronted with challenging encounters, and move on to better guilds. Others realize the encounter is above their skill level, and their guildies are leaving his team, he QQ on forums. It's the cycle of life.


Edit: maybe normal mode should be easier, but there's already an easy mode and it's LFR. If there wasn't, normals could fill this role.
Normal modes are dying? Blame it on LFR. As it is normal mode is for raiders which is fine. Really bad raiding groups will find it hard to advance, which is also fine.