They say Paladins are the best tanks

[Deleted]

ok didt noticed that. but tbh, there is no real group dmg in p1+p2, so the protpala heal isnt much better on this fight
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1843&e=2273
30k hps with 70% overheal -> ~10k hps effective
dk tanks are not really bad, its just that sotr is so strong on so many bosses. and they will nerf battle healer by 33%. sotr nerf is just a joke, there is no real difference

[shise]

We can bubble off the stacks on horridon, Iron Qon, Durumu and we can single tank Tortos, basically allowing your raid to add an extra dps

Blood can solo tank tortos too and it's DPS is like another DD spec due to vengance being overpowered with DK tank.

[Nillo]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1843&e=2273
30k hps with 70% overheal -> ~10k hps effective

If it says 30k effective hps it IS 30k effective hps.... overhealing has nothing to do with that.

---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 02:03 PM ----------

Blood can solo tank tortos too and it's DPS is like another DD spec due to vengance being overpowered with DK tank.

No we can't solo tank tortos....
unless you're talking about overgearing it by about 1 tier with an extremely high chance to die.

[Orion Antares]

No we can't solo tank tortos....
unless you're talking about overgearing it by about 1 tier with an extremely high chance to die.

Every tank, including a paladin has to make sure to time their active mitigation around the snapping bite to be able to survive solo tanking Tortos if at a ToT entry ilvl. At least all the tanks I know. I do know the capabilities of the other four tanks but will admit I know very little about DK capabilities aside from where they can exploit AMS mechanics and shield absorb stacking which would not include solo tanking Tortos of course.

[Deleted]

You can actually solotank Tortos, even on heroic, it's just really not worth the effort (unlike with a prot pala). They are a complete pain picking up, for both difficulties, and for hc you need to basically kite the bats back and forth, get stuns/a cd up on you anytime they connect and a single misstake will generally result in you going splat/the bats going up to full hp. Despite all this we'll take more damage, deal significantly less and our healing output isn't even close to a prot pala, and no our vengance scales far far worse than a paladins (hell, our mitigation doesn't scale from vengance, at all).

[Edwierd]

We can bubble off the stacks on horridon, Iron Qon, Durumu and we can single tank Tortos, basically allowing your raid to add an extra dps

Wish the pally tank I run with my guild was actually smart enough to bubble on horridon, been raiding him for 1 month +.

[ritsunero]

as of now they can clear stacks of debuff,have half the healing of a healer,the most midgation,raid wide damage cooldowns,and do a shit ton of dps ....need i say more

[Tojara]

Increase the range of blood worms (20-30 yards) and make VB raid wide. It fits the theme of a blood DK without completely breaking us.

We do need some other QoL changes. I really think death and decay should have a shorter CD for blood only. Increase the benefit of haste to rune regeneration (for blood only) and find a way to make critical strikes somewhat worthwhile?

[bals]

Increase the range of blood worms (20-30 yards) and make VB raid wide. It fits the theme of a blood DK without completely breaking us.

We do need some other QoL changes. I really think death and decay should have a shorter CD for blood only. Increase the benefit of haste to rune regeneration (for blood only) and find a way to make critical strikes somewhat worthwhile?

blood already gets a ton of extra rune regeneration built in.

[Tojara]

I realize.

My point being is haste as value is more valuable to a protection paladin than it is for a DK. We don't scale with any DPS nearly as effectively as other tanks (save maybe protection warriors). It might just be an issue of DKs being balanced and other tanks being busted, but we aren't without problems.

[matthias9742]

I actually think it would be cool if crit had a bigger role or blood DKs since haste would not be as feasible with imp. blood presence nuking it.
Make it so that crits generated double stacks of SoB and 15 RP instead of 10 would be a good start, but that is for another thread perhaps.

[Deleted]

IWe do need some other QoL changes. I really think death and decay should have a shorter CD for blood only. Increase the benefit of haste to rune regeneration (for blood only) and find a way to make critical strikes somewhat worthwhile?

I'm okay with us having to use defensive stats. It would probably even be easier if every other tank could follow this simple rule ... no issues about dps or anything, overall easier to balance, etc.

Though I agree some QoL changes would be nice.

Reduced cooldown on Outbreak, because frankly, it's flippin' annoying. We can't even spam the physical debuff without losing mitigation, how lame is that. Maybe even tie weakened blows to something else because we still need 2 gcds to apply the debuff on several targets. (While every other tank has a magical aoe button that doesn't compete (most of the time) with active mitigation.)

Baseline 2PT15. Because that rune cost is pretty much useless anyway. It was fun before, because of blade barrier and how the rune system used to work, but I don't see the point anymore. Bone shield and VB went that way, at least.

AMZ being outdated. Useless or too good is a little bit extreme. It's already static and has a small radius, at least make it viable more often by removing the cap and reducing the damage reduction or something. Also, it's directly competing with Purgatory and Lichborne, which isn't very smart, which leads me to the next point.

Our tree being weird. Having to choose between different kind of utility drives me mad. Why do we have our only movement buff on the same line as our snares ? Why do we have to choose between raid utility and personal cooldowns ? Look at the paladin tree .. there's a line for movement buffs, a line for CC, a line for personal cooldowns, etc... It's like they had so many ideas at the same time when they were working on DKs and didn't know where to put all of them, so they just randomly added everything where they could and now it's a mess. :s
Some things should be baseline, like AMZ for everyone or Purgatory for tanks maybe ? And some stuff should be reworked, or at least I really believe so.

Our glyphs aren't very interesting either. Most of them don't even matter at all, they don't bring anything of real substance. A warrior can choose to get more rage, or add a stun to his charge, or even get more mobility while we can't really change much. There's no flexibility at all, actually.

Also, raid utility. We could use some, just a bit.

[Nillo]

I'm okay with us having to use defensive stats. It would probably even be easier if every other tank could follow this simple rule ... no issues about dps or anything, overall easier to balance, etc.

Would be easier if they just removed avoidance stats - mastery and stamina are enough for def stats.
If they want to keep that stupid RNG nonsense might as well merge dodge/crit for plate tanks then we'd have Str for Parry, Crit for Dodge, Mastery for mitigation, Stamina for hp buffer.

[Deleted]

Would be easier if they just removed avoidance stats - mastery and stamina are enough for def stats.
If they want to keep that stupid RNG nonsense might as well merge dodge/crit for plate tanks then we'd have Str for Parry, Crit for Dodge, Mastery for mitigation, Stamina for hp buffer.

I'd agree with that if it didn't mean we'd have to compete even more with dps to get gear. I think it's actually a good thing to have separate tank and dps gear, it's always been like that and the problem only started to become real when some tanks started to use haste and crit.

Your idea could probably work, but everyone would want the same kind of equipment. I'm not sure that would be the best thing ever.

[Trubo]

I realize.

My point being is haste as value is more valuable to a protection paladin than it is for a DK. We don't scale with any DPS nearly as effectively as other tanks (save maybe protection warriors). It might just be an issue of DKs being balanced and other tanks being busted, but we aren't without problems.

Don't all warriors generate more rage with crits? In that case only Haste items are practically useless for a Prot Warrior.

[bals]

Don't all warriors generate more rage with crits?

hasn't been like that for awhile now.

[Deleted]

hell, our mitigation doesn't scale from vengance, at all.

Well, our active mitigation scales with unmitigated damage received within a short period of time. Isn't that basically vengeance (or the cause of it)?

Apart from that I'm also not quite happy with several things compared to other tanks:
I guess the only tank I can compete with damage/threat-wise are warriors, but maybe I've just played with baddies.
Death and decay used to be one of our main threat-moves in the last two expansions. It never really did THAT much damage, but when you dropped it and mobs where in it, you had aggro.
Today it doesn't have that threat-modifier anymore but it also hits like a wet noodle AND has a rather long cooldown. If you compare it to consecration it's extremely underpowered. okay, you can place it over a distance but I'd rather have a powerfull aoe under my ass than a weak one anywhere I wanted.
Okay, don't get me started about monk threat... you all know it's severely OP.

and the other thing is raid utility. Every tank can serve the whole raid in a rather active manner.

Druids: Rallying cry, HotW/Tranq-combo
Monks: Black Ox statue, Avert Harm
Paladins: Devotion Aura, Seal of Insight/Battlehealer glyph, Light's Hammer for stacking bosses, ALL THOSE HANDS

-> Death Knight: Bloodworms, AMZ.

even though I consider those of the DK as the weakest by far, as Bloodworms are not controllable and do 90% overheal and AMZ is only good for HUGE magical hits and make you drop Purgatory which Paladins (kind of) get baseline, the Paladin's set of raid utilities exceeds the other tank's by a LOT.

For the most fights, DKs can literally do NOTHING for the raid the whole time. Try AMZ in Megaera's rampage... yeah that helps a lot...

[Deleted]

If you compare it to consecration it's extremely underpowered. okay, you can place it over a distance but I'd rather have a powerfull aoe under my ass than a weak one anywhere I wanted.

Well, consecration can be used just like DnD if you glyph it.

So, yeah... I get what you mean.

[Nillo]

Well, our active mitigation scales with unmitigated damage received within a short period of time. Isn't that basically vengeance (or the cause of it)?

Vengeance scales with whatever damage you would've taken before mitigation making it much more predictable and generally higher than the heal you gain from DS - it also works better for proactive mitigation which is something DKs really suck at.
You just can't deny that a 3 sec mini shield wall (heck even without going for mastery it's generally over 50% iirc) from a paladin is much more effective at stopping something liek a roflstomp Horridon combo (best case scenario you'll get all 4 hits with just one ShoR) than a DS that needs much better timing just to cover half of the attacks and pretty much can't be used proactively.