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(H) means 25 man in T8. Which means normal by todays standards.Originally Posted by Injin
Heroic raids did not exist then. It was activated hard modes.
There was not tracking for 10 mans as nobody cared about them, people were raiding 25 man and 25 man was considered "Heroic" and HC by current standards was the activated HMs.
If you raided then you would probably know that.
This is the problem. We have people that did not play 4 years ago that are arguing against people that did and pretending to know more than they do about it. People are saying "T15 is so much harder than T8" when they never even played T8.
That is why these discussions is impossible. You are trying to talk about stuff you know nothing about.
If you want to compare heroic kills.
1.5 months into T8, you had 0, yes 0, null, zero, kills of Alone in the Darkness (H), which was the final raid encounter of T8.
1.5 months into T15 we have 83 kills on ra-den. 83 > 0.
Recent Forum Posts
View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?
- Voters
- 757. This poll is closed
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10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.
305 40.29% -
Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)
109 14.40% -
Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)
188 24.83% -
An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.
155 20.48%
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2013-05-23, 04:19 PM #421Deleted
Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-05-23 at 04:26 PM.
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2013-05-23, 04:28 PM #422Scarab Lord
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No, people are saying that because it's absolutely true. I cleared Ulduar 25 when it was current. The only boss in T8 that was really challenging without the activated hard mode was Yogg-Saron. Maybe Freya gets honorable mention, but only because giving her root mines collision detection was a stupid design choice. Normal Horridon is comparable to Firefighter Mimiron in tuning and complexity.
OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."
And His disciples said unto Him, "Can we get Kings instead?"
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2013-05-23, 04:36 PM #423DeletedCant tell if serious... but. The complexity involved in firefighter was beyond insane. Originally Posted by Lumineus
Yeah, that is why top guilds took 56 minutes to kill Horridon after Jin'Rokh died (including trash clears)
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/azralon/Blood+Fury
and it took 2 weeks after killing Yogg-Saron Normal to get Firefighter kill...
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/...a/rating.tier8
Just check the youtube comments on the first kill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjzBdfDo6xYLast edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-05-23 at 04:38 PM.
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2013-05-23, 04:38 PM #424Bloodsail Admiral
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2013-05-23, 04:39 PM #425The Unstoppable Force
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If/when Blizzard throws you under the bus, will you say the same thing? Originally Posted by spaace
"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite.
" -- Ghostcrawler
"The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
"Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"
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2013-05-23, 04:41 PM #426DeletedWho have blizzard thrown under the bus? They didnt make normal raiding harder since T8. Originally Posted by Osmeric
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2013-05-23, 04:46 PM #427DeletedOh all kinds of reasons. They stand in stuff, they don't have gear, they keep standing in things, they don't put out the numbers needed for things to die or a combination thereof. Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed
Genetics also kindof plays into how well you game.....Both. It's unfair to say "you're the prick" though. And genetics kind of plays into how fast you can run ^.^ so... "bobbins?" was it?
Who said anything about exclusion in and of itself being automatically negative, my strawman throwing buddy? The only thing I said was the current point where the game forces exclusion is too stringent.No matter what the Dev team does, guilds will have a requirement. There is always a requirement.
You will always need gear, keyboard, mouse, a level 90 etc etc. Excluding players who don't play WoW!
My main point is you can't really talk about "exclusion" as a negative trait for raids. It's bullshit.
hey are when you are looking at the best time for the most people. Raids you can't go to you can't enjoy!You said "best" which has far more implications than "participation rates." It's like politician speak up in this bitch I swear.
Participation rates are no way to judge the quality of a raid.
Good lord. I'm not using sinister politco speak to mess with your mind, oh paranoid one. it's just simple logic. More people who get to do stuff in a mass market game = better for the average. If average wages go up we don't go on about it being terrible for monarchs. ;p lord have mercy.
---------- Post added 2013-05-23 at 05:48 PM ----------
Raiding has become progressively harder over time since MC, with very seldom fall backs such as ICC and DS. Originally Posted by Firefly33
Right now, raiding is completely OTT and basically requires add ons, external voip and 3rd party support just to function.
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2013-05-23, 04:49 PM #428Bloodsail Admiral
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If something is too hard for me I don't complain that it needs to be made easier. I find something that suits my skill level, either in WoW or another game. Originally Posted by Osmeric
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2013-05-23, 04:52 PM #429The Unstoppable Force
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Yes, that's what many have done. So, if/when Blizzard reacts and provides content for these people who have been leaving, instead of the small minority of elites, I hope the "just leave if it's not tuned for you" comments will be self-applied. Originally Posted by NeverStop
"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite." -- Ghostcrawler
"The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
"Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"
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2013-05-23, 04:55 PM #430Deleted Originally Posted by NeverStop
lets have a looksee how your approach works in other areas.
"if I don't get my steak the way I want it, I don't complain, I either eat it raw/burned or I find another restaraunt."
"if I don't get medical care the way i want it, I don't complain I just walk to another hospital. Hopefully I haven't broken my leg."
"if I don't get the political system the way i want it, I don't complain, I just do whatever El Presidente tells me to."
"if I sit on broken glaqss by accident, I don't move. I just sit there, all manly, while I slowly bleed out. rawr."
Not really working for me, tbh. Hows about "if things are shit i'm not averse for pointing it out in the hopes they change."
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2013-05-23, 04:57 PM #431DeletedWell the nerfs is what stopped. Both T11 and T12 pretty much recieved 30% nerfs etc. T14 only recieved a 10% nerf. So they have scaled down the nerfs a bit. Originally Posted by Injin
voip and addons help, not required. 3rd party support for what? I dont see anything that requires that.
We have run several times now in MoP with 3-4 people (pugs) not on VOIP without issue. Did heroic spirit kings in item level appropriate gear (490-495ish~) with 3 people not in VOIP and one person on VOIP that did not speak the language we spoke.
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2013-05-23, 05:00 PM #432DeletedThey have. They shouldn't have. Originally Posted by Firefly33
DBM and voip aren't required to raid. uh huh.voip and addons help, not required.
No? You reforge yourself do you, perhaps with your own little excel spreadsheet? how likely is this for the average raider?
3rd party support for what? I dont see anything that requires that.
Ah right. So you needed voip.We have run several times now in MoP with 3-4 people (pugs) not on VOIP without issue. Did heroic spirit kings in item level appropriate gear (490-495ish~) with 3 people not in VOIP and one person on VOIP that did not speak the language we spoke.
Comedy back peddling, ho!
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2013-05-23, 05:00 PM #433DeletedComparing raiding to stuff like that is... Originally Posted by Injin
Lets do a fairer comparison.
pretty much "i cant hit the ball in baseball with the bat because i cant be arsed to even focus on aiming or hitting it. Give me the ball so I can hold it still so I can hit it easier and replace the bat with a giant tennis racket"
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2013-05-23, 05:02 PM #434Deletedit's much more like "i want to play softball with my friends and instead you are having a pro hurl the ball past me constantly and this shit is becoming tedious." Originally Posted by Firefly33
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2013-05-23, 05:02 PM #435DeletedEhr, we used VOIP because we were 6 IRLS trolling around, you know, friends and family, joking around on VOIP, did not need it for the boss fights. As said, 40% of the raid was not on the VOIP. Also I do not deny that VOIP makes stuff easier. It just isnt required Originally Posted by Injin
Fail to see where I am backpeddling.
And yes I reforge myself.
---------- Post added 2013-05-23 at 05:02 PM ----------
Nope. now you are just back peddling. And I agree, this is becoming tedious. I mean, you have shown over and over again how little you know of the subject that you are trying to talk about. Yet everyday you are confronted you just ignore it and move on the next crappy argument. Originally Posted by Injin
Stuff like
Originally Posted by Injin
Tells how uneducated you are about the current subject and you should just leave it to the other people that know what they are talking about. Now backpaddle away please.Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-05-23 at 05:05 PM.
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2013-05-23, 05:05 PM #436DeletedThese are for fights you practiced already, knew and where with a dedicated guild which overgeared the content. Originally Posted by Firefly33
Do you do brand new fights with no voip? No of course you bloody don't. Getting boring now, buddy, Knock it off.
Check the mirror.Fail to see where I am backpeddling.
And how likely is that for the average raider?And yes I reforge myself.
Then stop backing away and twisting around, man up and own what you are saying and so forth.Nope. now you are just back peddling. And I agree, this is becoming tedious.
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2013-05-23, 05:07 PM #437Epic!
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Because people aren't allowed to change their mode of thought in different circumstances..... /rollseyes Originally Posted by Injin
Analogies, how do they work?
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2013-05-23, 05:10 PM #438DeletedOk, so why are you talking to me on this? Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed
it doesn't follow from your stated premise.
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2013-05-23, 05:15 PM #439Herald of the Titans
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the same way i hold my liquor, by the ears...
Jokes aside, I don't see it broken, I don't see a gap, and I think this is silly.
I think there SHOULD be a little gap anyhow. Or we'd have to call it LFN, and look for normal seems by defenition...weird.
(mostly b/c if you are looking for normal, you must be abnormal. Lets change it to abnormal-finder....wait, that just sounds like a dating sight for oddballs.....
Fuck it, lets leave it like it is."There are other sites on the internet designed for people to make friends or relationships. This isn't one" Darsithis Super Moderator
Proof that the mmochamp community can be a bitter and lonely place. What a shame.
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2013-05-23, 05:18 PM #440DeletedYes, it was on our first kill. "Brand new" in the case we had not killed it before. Though we had several first kills compeltely without raid realted VOIP. Originally Posted by Injin
As I already said though your reading comprehension failed to notice, we did not overgeared the content. Unless 485-495 ilvl is overgearing heroic MSV.
You are still dodging so much
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