How the hell will the orcs redeem themselves when all this is done?

[Trassk]

Zulkhan, well I see what your saying, the fact still rests, any bad guy that comes from the alliance, whenever its been brought up, the alliance always wash there hands of it, and take no responsibility for those villains coming into the story. They've never wanted to be accountable for ones like Arthas, Illidan, Kael'thas, thats all on the characters head, not theres. And yet, when it comes down to it with a characters like Arthas, more blame goes into the horde for Ner'zhul being the lich king, and so washing there hands of anything wrong Arthas did.

Where as with ones like Gul'dan, or Garrosh, its always the hordes fault for those characters.

This is a running themed, and frankly, its just keeps getting perpetuated by the writers this way.

[Deleted]

Well, problem is that while the Alliance did essentially nothing in the "morally questionable" sphere in this expansion, if you think about it for a moment, from WC3 to Cataclysm, the Alliance has always been the faction that gave birth to a considerable amount of villains. Yeah, not questionable characters, villains; so is understandable that the story wanted to bring some "evil" (not even true evil, compared to the Alliance villains) erupting from the Horde, what make it so hard to digest yet is the fact that this storyline evolved entirely in WoW, no hooks with the RTS, plus Garrosh was not the type of character with instant-clear villany, he followed a descending path, sadly with the rest of the Horde following the falling.

Still i perfectly understand your point, but for me the main problems were all those promises of more Horde vs Alliance conflict, hinted that until Garrosh didn't turn in something really horrible, there would have been a lot of conflict in which both sides were in open war, no good or bad sides, just the cruel reality of war. But i knew that were promises very hard to honour when you know from the beginning that the last patch of the expansion will be the "Siege of Orgrimmar", in which Horde and Alliance unite against Garrosh....and in fact, after the arrival in Pandaria in which there were some questionable actions by both sides, all went completely into a sinkhole, we haven't seen war again until the 5.1, and in this we just have Garrosh be the bulding-up villain doing reckless and questionable, even irritating, things, and the Alliance chosing to "right thing to do" and become the good guys.

And now, we are, instead, nothing more than rebels forced to kill our own and looks like traitors, in good faith, but still traitors, with the Alliance following their path of "justness".

Yeah, is awful.

Blizz is only good at making stories that are black and white.

[Trassk]

Gonna be a bit painful for the rest of this x-pac least for me.
Our enemies our not some foriegn enemy but our very own people, the same people we have fought and bled aside with in campaigns across Azeroth

Got to admit, well I hated what the kor'kohn were made into, I get no joy from having to run them down. I just think when killing them, from a lore stand point, how many kor'kohn are only doing what they are doing because its all they know, and might be fathers and mothers, trying to protect there families from alliance oppression, all well Garrosh makes them into savage fighters (not to say all kor'kohn would be, some will obviously be just warmongering tools of war)

---------- Post added 2013-05-24 at 03:17 AM ----------

Blizz is only good at making stories that are black and white.

unfortunately this seems to be the way they are running it nowadays. Back in WC3, they actually managed to gives some actual depth to both factions from there own story archs, they painted the hordes as not being evil, and painted the alliance as not being holy good.

sadly now, it seems like they've fallen back into type, and really, all this does is make the alliance seem so much more boring, and the horde so much more generic. I mean sure the rebellion is cool, but it feels like so much of the story has stagnated, and as an orc fan, this patch is just depressing to be part of.

[Aquamonkey]

now im even more confused

Either way theres a lot of stuff in international law and Geneva COncention and what not that I see as bullshit

Only Congress can declare war and that hasn't happened since WW2. Every other war the US has been in has been illegal.

[Haven]

Only Congress can declare war and that hasn't happened since WW2. Every other war the US has been in has been illegal.

If it's illegal, who's to judge? Yet another argument in favor of "who has the biggest guns and fattest dollars, is right".

[Talen]

Where as with ones like Gul'dan, or Garrosh, its always the hordes fault for those characters.

This is a running themed, and frankly, its just keeps getting perpetuated by the writers this way.

Which is because of the nature of those factions.

Arthas was an Alliance prince. True. But when he went bad, the Alliance didn't go bad with him. The Alliance never supported his goals. Never helped him achieve his goals. They stood up and fought him and denounced him because what he was doing went against everything the Alliance stands for. Plus, there's really only so much you can bend a factions character before breaking it.

Garrosh, however, is different. He's seen as a bad guy. But, unlike Arthas, he has the full support of his people. He isn't coercing them, he isn't tricking them, he isn't driving them into battle with whips or threats. The Horde, by and large, support him, support his goals, take joy in the battles they fight and relish the thought of what the Alliance is suffering, no matter how barbaric the actions are. And, as a result, the Horde is tainted by Garroshes actions in a manner the Alliance wasn't wrt Arthas.

And just as the Alliance is constrained by their characterisation of 'good', the Horde is constrained by their characterisation as 'bad'; the player base will accept from the Horde what they won't from the Alliance.

EJL

[zephid]

All they need to do is to reinstate Thrall as Warchief.

[Aquamonkey]

If it's illegal, who's to judge? Yet another argument in favor of "who has the biggest guns and fattest dollars, is right".

That's what the Judicial Branch is for.

---------- Post added 2013-05-23 at 10:51 PM ----------

Which is because of the nature of those factions.

Arthas was an Alliance prince. True. But when he went bad, the Alliance didn't go bad with him. The Alliance never supported his goals. Never helped him achieve his goals. They stood up and fought him and denounced him because what he was doing went against everything the Alliance stands for. Plus, there's really only so much you can bend a factions character before breaking it.

Garrosh, however, is different. He's seen as a bad guy. But, unlike Arthas, he has the full support of his people. He isn't coercing them, he isn't tricking them, he isn't driving them into battle with whips or threats. The Horde, by and large, support him, support his goals, take joy in the battles they fight and relish the thought of what the Alliance is suffering, no matter how barbaric the actions are. And, as a result, the Horde is tainted by Garroshes actions in a manner the Alliance wasn't wrt Arthas.

And just as the Alliance is constrained by their characterisation of 'good', the Horde is constrained by their characterisation as 'bad'; the player base will accept from the Horde what they won't from the Alliance.

EJL

Except all the bad things Arthas did before becoming a DK.

[Scummer]

Garrosh =/= all of the orcs.

Garrosh = Vast majority of Orcs

[Talen]

Except all the bad things Arthas did before becoming a DK.

Which is when he started to be separated from the faction. He did a lot that the faction condemns. Thats why its more difficult to tarnish the Alliance. Arthas killing the mercs was and is against the Alliance values and the Alliance and players condemn him for it.

Garrosh does things that work with the Horde values and the Horde praises.

EJL

[Aquamonkey]

Which is when he started to be separated from the faction. He did a lot that the faction condemns. Thats why its more difficult to tarnish the Alliance. Arthas killing the mercs was and is against the Alliance values and the Alliance and players condemn him for it.

That must be why they celebrated Arthas' return like he was a hero. They only started condemning him after he killed Terenas.

[Verdugo]

Blizz is only good at making stories that are black and white.

They cant even make black correctly.

[Derpleton]

I think it would be kind of cool to see guards from all the other Horde races in Orgrimmar similar to the Kor'Kron in Undercity.

[Lemons]

That must be why they celebrated Arthas' return like he was a hero. They only started condemning him after he killed Terenas.

They don't really know about all the crap he did. They probably know about Andorhal, but at the same time they think Arthas hunted down and killed the powers responsible for creating the plague, so they're probably willing to look past that.

[yetgdhfgh]

Nothing will happen

The other faction leaders will just say "Those wacky orcs, Whaddaya gonna do" then they will smile and move on

[ZeroWashu]

ever see those orcs on pikes in Redridge?

Seems like a good start to me

[yetgdhfgh]

ever see those orcs on pikes in Redridge?

Seems like a good start to me

Just you go and try and we will send in the gob squad to blow up that bridge that took you so long to build

[jealouspirate]

They won't do anything to 'redeem' themselves. They never do. Doesn't seem to matter how many people the Orcs wrong, or how bad they act. It's always hand-waved shortly after because we must focus on "the greater good" or whatever. Basically they have plot armour.

[Deleted]

Zulkhan, well I see what your saying, the fact still rests, any bad guy that comes from the alliance, whenever its been brought up, the alliance always wash there hands of it, and take no responsibility for those villains coming into the story. They've never wanted to be accountable for ones like Arthas, Illidan, Kael'thas, thats all on the characters head, not theres. And yet, when it comes down to it with a characters like Arthas, more blame goes into the horde for Ner'zhul being the lich king, and so washing there hands of anything wrong Arthas did.

Where as with ones like Gul'dan, or Garrosh, its always the hordes fault for those characters.

This is a running themed, and frankly, its just keeps getting perpetuated by the writers this way.

Agreed.

There is a very long running theme of the Horde falling to corruption and the bad deeds happening under its banner with the faction being held responsible. (Gul'Dan, Blackhand, Putress, Garrosh etc)

With the Alliance on the other hand every bad guy always went rogue before anything bad happens, Arthas, Garithos, Fandral, Illidan, etc.

This is why having MOP flipped with a bad Alliance king (Varian staying a douche from wrath) and a rebellion against him culminating in a raid on Stormwind (with Horde helping save the Alliance) would be such a compelling story. It would force the alliance to look in the mirror and see that it isn't perfect, and the Horde isn't all bad.

Right now we are dealing with the question, "What does it mean to be horde", but equally we also need to answer "what does it mean to be alliance".

[Yriel]

They don't really know about all the crap he did. They probably know about Andorhal, but at the same time they think Arthas hunted down and killed the powers responsible for creating the plague, so they're probably willing to look past that.

How many people know about Garroshs dirty secrets ? Most Horde citizens probably think of Theramore as a big military victory, the stuff with the stolen bomb is probably only known to a selected few. Same with most of his Pandaria exploits.