Haste > Mastery When Time is right ?

[Mazius]

Err, not really sure what you mean with this sentence to be honest. Math displays that, sure, there will however be fights where your RSC will have <20% uptime and ones where it'll have >40% uptime. That IS RNG. Due to haste increasing uptimes, therefore proc chances, it's smoothing out RNG. There's very little RNG in something having a 90% proc (just a made up number before you start nitpicking on this) instead of 30%. While the situation isn't as extreme as the example I made, that's still what you see when increasing haste. Less RNG means that if you have a good RNG, the ones more dependant on it (in this case, mastery build) will obviously shine better than the ones attempting to smooth it out (haste builds). On average, though, it'll end up being even and the best stat can actually win. What I'm pointing out is that world of logs ranks are good RNG scenarios because of their nature. Good DPS in an easy spec depends on RNG. Due to mastery being ahead in a good RNG scenario, it's ahead on WoL. That doesn't necessarily show how the two stats behave with average RNG though.

I need 106 sec with my current haste to get guaranteed RSC proc.
You need 99 sec with your haste to get guaranteed RSC proc.

I need 17.4 sec to get guaranteed ToB proc.
You need 16 sec to get guaranteed ToB proc.

Please tell me more about "smoothing" RNG.

Full haste rogues relying on RNG exactly as full mastery rogues.

[Fluorescent0]

I need 106 sec with my current haste to get guaranteed RSC proc.
You need 99 sec with your haste to get guaranteed RSC proc.

I need 17.4 sec to get guaranteed ToB proc.
You need 16 sec to get guaranteed ToB proc.

Pleae tell me more about "smoothing" RNG.

Full haste rogues relying on RNG exactly as full mastery rogues.

I don't know why you're taking this so personal or anything. Increasing probability to proc is, by definition, being less subject to RNG. I'm not saying mastery is bad or anything, I'm just saying that using World of Logs as an argument is biased due to how the two interact with RNG itself. Going "lololololol small numbers" still doesn't change the truth.

[zerynax]

I need 106 sec with my current haste to get guaranteed RSC proc.
You need 99 sec with your haste to get guaranteed RSC proc.

I need 17.4 sec to get guaranteed ToB proc.
You need 16 sec to get guaranteed ToB proc.

Please tell me more about "smoothing" RNG.

Full haste rogues relying on RNG exactly as full mastery rogues.

You actually sum it up perfectly right here, backing Flour up.

It's not about the amount of seconds between each proc that matters, it's the fact you get more procs.

If it had been a 0.1% increased uptime it would be a waste, but it would still be a higher uptime and that is the essence of this discussion which you seem to not want to realize.

He is not sitting there trying to make you look dumb, he is trying to make his point, and also alot of other people's point, that Haste *WILL* increase your uptime and smooth out the rotation, but it is NOT gonna make it 90% smoother, which other people also tried pointing out.

And to sum it up, trinket procs are still absurdly reliant on RNG, as he also said, I've had tries with 2 procs from RSC over a 5 min fight, while I've had others with 8 procs, it all comes down to RNG, but Haste tends to smooth it out, I see a noticable difference between Combat and Assassination trinket procs due to the difference in Haste levels, but not to the degree of a 70% increased uptime.

So while I do not argue your math being correct, it still proves his point it gives better uptime *on average*, but in no way guaranteed.

[Mazius]

I don't know why you're taking this so personal or anything.

I'm not taking it personally at all.
All i'm saying is: in theory full haste getting slightly over full mastery becasue of slightly (really slightly) higher rppm trinkets proc chance, slightly higher capacitance proc chance (tho with 37.5 rppm it's barely noticable), plus higher number of white melee hits, therefore higher number of IP procs, and 1 energy per second natural regeneration.

All of these factors combined (in theory) puts full haste 0.5% DPS higher than full mastery, in expense of lower poison damage.
In my case going full haste means trading 20,8% mastery for 7,9% haste.

And to sum it up, trinket procs are still absurdly reliant on RNG, as he also said, I've had tries with 2 procs from RSC over a 5 min fight, while I've had others with 8 procs, it all comes down to RNG, but Haste tends to smooth it out.

Is it normal version of RSC? If you getting proc on pull (it means staying idle for 2 min before pull) you gonna get 3rd proc 4 minutes into fight with no luck at all.

And no, 7.8% haste (in my case) not gonna smooth it out. I'm still gonna be relying on RNG but with less poison damage and with less actual damage during said procs.

[Fluorescent0]

I'm not taking it personally at all.
All i'm saying is: in theory full haste getting slightly over full mastery becasue of sliightly (really slightly) higher rppm trinkets proc chance, slightly higher capacitance proc chance (tho with 37.5 rppm it's barely noticable), plus higher number of white melee hits, therefore higher number of IP procs, and 1 energy per second natural regeneration.

All of these factors combined (in theory) puts full haste 0.5% DPS higher than full mastery, in expense of lower poison damage.
In my case going full haste means trading 20,8% mastery for 7,9% haste.


Is it normal version of RSC? If you getting proc on pull (it means staying idle for 2 min before pull) you gonnf get 3rd proc 4 minutes into fight with no luck at all.

And no, 7.8% haste (in my case) not gonna smooth it out. I'm still gonna be relying on RNG but with less posion damage and with less actual damage during said procs.

I've never went into the Haste vs Mastery debate as stats. I just said that WoL is skewed when it comes to discussing them. That's the point I'm trying to get through.

You can think 7.8% haste does nothing for as long as you want, the fact is that by increasing proc rates (while you may feel it's not a substantial amount) it is smoothing out RNG. Smoothing out does not mean it doesn't have any effect anymore, it simply means it plays a smaller effect.

Not really sure what you mean with that last sentence, because thinking increasing trinket has no effect because of that I can't help but facepalm, because you're completely disregarding higher uptime.

[Mazius]

Have you seen formula i've posted before?
Can you see real difference made by 7,8% haste in this formula?
Np, i can help you out.

P = R * H * (t - t0) / 60

Let's compare 1.15 and 1,228 H.

To simplify things i'll put all other variables as 1.

P = 1.92% chance (with 15% haste)
P = 2.05% chance (with 22.8% haste)

0.13% difference. I'm impressed how smooth things are now.

[zerynax]

It's with a 2/2 HC RSC, and most times we pull right after trash, rarely wait for trinkets to come off CD, I reckon with the exception of progress pulls we rarely have more than 30-40 seconds from last trash to bosspull so the guaranteed proc does not kick in.

But I'd say about 70% of the pulls it procs within the first ~10 seconds of the fight.

But while I know the theoretical difference is slim it's also a bit of a neverending discussion since most bosses in ToT does not give you 100% uptime on boss which means(also from theorycrafting) that Mastery pulls ahead since the value of Haste decreases due to lost swings and wasted energy/CP.

But still, it comes down to smoothing it out with average procs being higher on paper from Haste, but not by a high margain.

And also, with high Haste during procs you will get more energy, more abilities out (obviously depending on how much haste you got, 0.1 more energy per sec will not really give you any more abilities and attacks in the proc window tbh) and that can (not guaranteed) give you more dmg if said abilities do more dmg than the dmg you would be able to do during the window without the extra attacks.

But going so far in depth like this tends to end into someone getting nudged the wrong way and it also ends up being impossible to get an exact sum off due to the nature of RPPM, so unless you can do an actual fight, with all the errors a human can do, the shit that can go wrong, you dying or god knows with the exact same factors you can never get an accurate read (I know you can set alot of parameters into SimC or other programs, but there is still quite a bit of human error or pure RNG factors beyond your control that any Sims can't calculate).

But from what I've tried myself, without having close to full BiS-gear, I like having the haste and mastery within ~1k of eachother to get more of everything, the difference between either full haste or full mastery was fairly small, I only really noticed the difference on fights like Horridon or Tortos when you have alot of downtime on boss and running after adds instead, ending up with Mastery winning by about 5%.

Currently running Combat so I will leave this thread to you people still playing Assassination (I will be back playing it someday I guess )

Oh and Mazius, while I do not say you are wrong in anyway, it still comes down to him being correct, it gives higher uptime, the % does not matter, it's the fact it does.
If the small increase is worth it or not is a completely different story.

[Kael]

Is it normal version of RSC? If you getting proc on pull (it means staying idle for 2 min before pull) you gonna get 3rd proc 4 minutes into fight with no luck at all.

This is not how bad luck protection works (in the time period you're looking at). With "no luck at all" you'll get no procs in 4 minutes. Period. When you complete a revolution of "expected" proc interval, you increase the chance for your trinket to proc by a multiplier, not by an added constant - it should never hit p>=1 in sustained combat. I can sit out of combat for an hour on a caster (no auto-attacks to help you) cast 1 spell, and not see all my trinkets proc. I've also gone ~4.5 minutes without a bad juju trinket proc on my rogue. My luck is ass. The next pull, I sat at 5-stack ToB for almost a minute. What does this mean? RNG happens.

Edit: correction, there is a "guaranteed" range, but it won't occur in combat for non-ToB/RoRO rogue trinkets - see math below, then divide by 6, and change the frequency of chance to proc from 10s between swings to <1. Altered language above to show reality - thanks Pathal for pointing out my derp moment.

Many of us are interested in averages. On an average pull I'd like to decrease my odds of getting a proc on the pull and never again, in favor of a lower "HELL YEAH I ROCKED THAT PULL" when extra procs happen. The chance you'll get that crazy-proc pull is higher with haste, and the chance you'll get the "wow, screw you RNG" pulls is lower, when you have more haste.

If you're interested in trinket over time proc situations, look at the math Hamlet did on proc iterations to display bad luck protection. It's still quite possible to go 10+ minutes with no proc, just very unlikely.

[Pathal]

This is not how bad luck protection works. With "no luck at all" you'll get no procs. Period. When you complete a revolution of "expected" proc interval, you increase the chance for your trinket to proc by a multiplier, not by an added constant - it NEVER hits p=1. I can sit out of combat for hours on a caster (no auto-attacks to help you) cast 1 spell, and not see all my trinkets proc. I've also gone ~4.5 minutes without a bad juju trinket proc on my rogue. My luck is ass. The next pull, I sat at 5-stack ToB for almost a minute. What does this mean? RNG happens.

Many of us are interested in averages. On an average pull I'd like to decrease my odds of getting a proc on the pull and never again, in favor of a lower "HELL YEAH I ROCKED THAT PULL" when extra procs happen. The chance you'll get that crazy-proc pull is higher with haste, and the chance you'll get the "wow, screw you RNG" pulls is lower, when you have more haste.

If you're interested in trinket over time proc situations, look at the math Hamlet did on proc iterations to display bad luck protection. It's still quite possible to go 10+ minutes with no proc, just very unlikely.

Well, actually there is a point where you're guaranteed a proc. It's just a really long time for normal trinkets in the .55 RPPM range. It's even worse if you're constantly attacking because you aren't pooling your chances together, and as a result the multiplier needs to get even larger and larger.

This is a quote from Hamlet's math on a quicker 3.3 RPPM trinket at 15s MPT:

With high-frequency trinkets like the 3.3 RPPM melee trinkets, mean proc time may be 15 seconds or lower with some haste. At that frequency (say it’s exactly 15 seconds), after only 25 seconds out of combat, you’re guaranteed a proc on the first swing of the fight. (You’d normally have a 2/3 chance to proc on that swing, since you’ve pooled 10 seconds out of an MPT of 15, and having “failed” to proc for 1.67 MPT’s gives a further 50% boost.

So, there's clearly a point where the probability is p >= 1. It's just a question of how long.

[Deleted]

Thing is, when you go haste, you don't go mastery. Losing those extra 3, 4, 5 thousands mastery is huge.

Everything going haste provides is a joke but the increased chance to proc RPPMs. On the other hand, mastery affect more than half of our total damages (deadly poison, instant poison, vw, envenom, which sum up between 50% and 60%), is much, much less affected by uptime losses than haste is, and greatly enhances our cleave and aoe damages - while, on the contrary, haste value is decreased on those situations, which happen for 7 to 8 of the 13 T15 bosses.

From what I've read, you guys favorizing haste seem to consider that maxing mastery equals relying more on RNG. It's not. If you are maxing haste, you are making everything on your power for having this extra trinket proc, and on all the pulls when it won't happen, you're screwed. But given the very small difference between, say, 7000 haste and 9000, this extra proc will most of the time not show up.

[theturn]

According to shadowcraft switching from haste to mastery costs me a whopping .7% dps. Can we all agree that these new trinkets are a nightmare in practice.

[Kael]

According to shadowcraft switching from haste to mastery costs me a whopping .7% dps. Can we all agree that these new trinkets are a nightmare in practice.

Yes. I hate them.

Dryaan - that's not really accurate; RPPM is what makes haste pull ahead of mastery (for patchwerk), not the only value it has; haste would naturally overtake mastery eventually anyway. You point out that mastery affects 50-60% of damage, while haste increases envenom uptime, auto-attacks, poison procs from auto-attacks, poison procs from mut/dispatch, more mut/dispatch damage - literally everything but rupture and your potential ambush out of stealth. To borrow your gear - what's snapshot on Shadowcraft from your PvE armory, swapping trinkets to BoIF and TitM, leaving only the meta - shifting 2,000 haste to mastery or mastery to haste is a 6.4 DPS movement.

I left the meta in because meta is the ONE RPPM-based ability where haste is actually noticeable. Adding the other trinkets - as I pointed out - is all about trying to minimize pulls where your luck is bloody awful and screws your damage. I still maintain that if you're not reforging fight-fight, you should stick with mastery, because it's better for some fights, and haste can only be equal/ahead on patchwerk; if you're looking at the majority of fights in ToT, mastery's ahead.

[Dropndestroyrr]

You assume top end parses = top end guilds. Whatever doesn't really matter. You obviously have all the answers.

[Coldkil]

From what I've read, you guys favorizing haste seem to consider that maxing mastery equals relying more on RNG.

Didn't get this sentence. My point is exactly this - while haste is superior on paper, the model is based on a vacuum that tries to reduce RNG to minimum; hence on the single performance RNG can screw haste (like it can make it shine).

Mastery on the contrary focuses on the less RNG enviroment of direct damage increase - so it's most of the times a solid option and can be better than haste.

[Lunareste]

Take it from me, a rogue who has held multiple rank 1, top 10 and nearly every fight in the 99th percentile; and who has played around with both stat sets.

Haste builds are ahead of mastery builds on single target, hypothetical fights by a very small amount. Not even 800 dps in my case.

In practice, Mastery is far superior at AOE, target switching, and is less effected by having to move off the boss to tricks adds or anything of the sort.

If you are doing anything, at anytime, other than turreting on a single target then you should be gemmed and reforged Mastery. In the absolute BEST case scenario for Haste, you will be 800 DPS ahead. In anything else, your DPS will be miles and miles behind Mastery.

[Deleted]

Uh, no. The 800 dps difference you claim to be would be noticed only after comparing *a lot* of pulls. In the best case scenario, mastery wins hands down, and that's cause of RNG. This has been discussed earlier, in this very thread.

Also, you don't need to specify your feats. It really doesn't serve you.

[Naiattavain]

this is what i was talking about the whole time; everyone is learning how screwed over we are jumping to this insane cycle of oh ! haste! no! Mastery!!!; it's not working blizz.

doesn't any understand that with all the cc's for pvp rogue get jewed. so why bother with having combos costing 20 energy across the board. gear is still going to limit dps. at least we would feel as if we could make a stand in a battle for the objectives rogues do.

No Mr. bond you keep your brettta 9mm since it jammed on you i insist you take this walther ppk like a brick through plate glass.

Infracted.

[Refrakt]

This is heroic Twin fight.

Capacitance
244 - Haste rogue
233 - Mastery rogue

Blades of Renataki
7 - haste rogue
5 - mastery rogue

Blade
70 - haste rogue
50 - mastery rogue

Envenom
58 times - haste rogue - 10404780 damage
55 times - mastery rogue - 13414572 damage

We are only 1-3 illvl apart. mastery hit harder in envenom

[Verain]

This week I went haste (even switching out my gems to agi/haste instead of agi/mastery). A part of this is, I wanted to try sub on some fights, and it also lets me run combat with no reforge.

If you build hit cap, expertise cap, haste > mastery > crit, you'll be *technically* optimally reforged for mutilate (this is what shadowcraft will give you at certain gear levels, and I'm within that range). But, you'll be VERY close to your optimal reforge for sub and combat. If you swap specs routinely, this will save you hundreds of gold a night. I realize that most of these discussions are just about mutilate, and just about a certain approach, but I want to point out that that's probably not the only approach possible.

I will say this: I don't like the haste build whenever I have to fight a big wad of aoe things. Every spec but combat wants mastery there, and even combat has less return from haste if there are target swaps. I don't like haste when I pool energy for a big finishing cycle and see smaller numbers out of envenom during my high blades stacks than I would, but I get that I'm having more blades stacks to work with.

In general, haste seems like more work for more single target returns, but the amount of the returns is not shocking. I'll probably switch back to mastery.

I wish combat had a more fun mastery. At least it isn't weak as hell like when it was first made.

[Dazinth]

So is it better to fully commit to mastery or haste instead trying to balance the two stats?