Beast Mastery in PvE: AoE, Beast Cleave and Kill Command?

[Aleksej89]

I am confused as to should BM use Kill Command when doing AoE on 5+ targets?

Some people say Kill Command is spread to nearby targets by Beast Cleave, others say it does not but it is still worth casting even during AoE.

Some folks say to only cast Multi-Shot every ~4 seconds to refresh Beast Cleave, and spend the rest of focus on regular abilities.

And then some say that Kill Command should not be used at all when AoEing on 5+ targets, instead BM should just spam Multi-Shot with all focus.


Even guides like Icy and Noxxic differ on the subject, so i really got no clue who is actually right.
Can you fellow hunters please shed some light on this issue with a good explanation if possible?

[transphenomenal]

I just spent the last 45 minutes checking different permutations and I found out the following:

1: Beast Cleave does not base itself off of Kill Command.
2: Beast Cleave does base itself off of basic attacks like Bite and Claw.
3: Beast Cleave usually uses the pets Auto Attack to determine its damage.
4: Using more than 1 Multi Shot per 4 seconds does not give you more Beast Cleaves.
5: Beast Cleave is not used against the pets main target.
6: Beast Cleave usually attacks 3 times per 4 seconds per extra enemy.
7: Beast cleave does not crit, however it does increase its damage appropriately if the attack it's based off of crits.

[Aleksej89]

I just spent the last 45 minutes checking different permutations and I found out the following:

1: Beast Cleave does not base itself off of Kill Command.
2: Beast Cleave does base itself off of basic attacks like Bite and Claw.
3: Beast Cleave usually uses the pets Auto Attack to determine its damage.
4: Using more than 1 Multi Shot per 4 seconds does not give you more Beast Cleaves.
5: Beast Cleave is not used against the pets main target.
6: Beast Cleave usually attacks 3 times per 4 seconds per extra enemy.
7: Beast cleave does not crit, however it does increase its damage appropriately if the attack it's based off of crits.

Very cool info, thank you for gathering it!

[Emophia]

Does the new blink strike effect beast cleave?

[Deleted]

2: Beast Cleave does base itself off of basic attacks like Bite and Claw.

Supposing that is true then yes, Blink Strikes improves beast cleave AoE since it only improves the pets basic attack.

[Windthorn]

Are you staying that for BM its best to stagger Multishots to allow full effect of beast cleaves rather than just spam multishot as with survival?

[Kennyloggins]

Are you staying that for BM its best to stagger Multishots to allow full effect of beast cleaves rather than just spam multishot as with survival?

You wouldn't want to spam multi-shot on something like 3 targets (you'd want to be using KC at that point still, but have priority on keeping BC up), but once you get to 5+ is the point where it's probably better to go all out on the multi-shots. However, that said, you have to be mindful of your focus. For example, if you're going to be using Barrage, it's particularly important that you manage your focus so that you don't let Beast Cleave drop.

One thing I figure a lot of people aren't doing is using Fervor. Fervor gives you more focus to do more multi-shots, as well as gives your pet more focus to do more empowered (via Wild Hunt) Basic Attacks, thereby increasing Beast Cleave damage. Not only that, Fervor is a mere 2100 DPS loss over Dire Beast single target, so unless the fight is pure single target (Dark Animus? Jin'rokh doesn't count because you wouldn't use Dire Beast on that fight since the pools don't benefit them). I used Fervor on all fights this reset (would have gone Dire Beast on Animus, but I forgot).

[Perrito]

You wouldn't want to spam multi-shot on something like 3 targets (you'd want to be using KC at that point still, but have priority on keeping BC up), but once you get to 5+ is the point where it's probably better to go all out on the multi-shots. However, that said, you have to be mindful of your focus. For example, if you're going to be using Barrage, it's particularly important that you manage your focus so that you don't let Beast Cleave drop.

One thing I figure a lot of people aren't doing is using Fervor. Fervor gives you more focus to do more multi-shots, as well as gives your pet more focus to do more empowered (via Wild Hunt) Basic Attacks, thereby increasing Beast Cleave damage. Not only that, Fervor is a mere 2100 DPS loss over Dire Beast, so unless the fight is pure single target (Dark Animus? Jin'rokh doesn't count because you wouldn't use Dire Beast on that fight since the pools don't benefit them). I used Fervor on all fights this reset (would have gone Dire Beast on Animus, but I forgot).

fervor is way op when couple with blink strikes, it dosnt give ur pet more focus it also give u more arcaneshots if u desire or just make focus a less pain in the rear. i tried last reset with direbeast and i wasnt pleased after doing sv with fervor for almost 2 months. i think the gcd and the other things that fervor gives end up giving you more than that extra dps direbeast show.

[Rullis]

Just changed from DB to Fervor in the last few bosses today. Fervor on Iron Qon was just great with Blink Strikes. Aswell as in the end I could keep up my beast cleave alot and managed to do a pretty good 172k (or was it 182..? I cant remember) ~ dps on IQ HC. No logs, though so can't really check. Anyway. Much better than I've ever done with Survival before.

[Perrito]

Fervor brings a lot to the table when couple with blink strikes. more arcane shots(thus more cobra strikes procs), more controled focus. after you get used to is really hard to unspec it. wish we had the same focus we had in dragon soul. not to mention that is gcd free so you are not losing 4 gcd per min compared to direbeast.

[Conando]

It's funny, one thing that constantly escapes me is how different things are with scaling.

2k DPS still seems like a lot to me, but it's actually about the same sim loss that SV took from taking Fervor in T14 when you take scaling into account (and that's a tradeoff most hunters took). Scaled down to Dragon Soul numbers it would be something like a couple hundred DPS loss.

[Deleted]

You wouldn't want to spam multi-shot on something like 3 targets (you'd want to be using KC at that point still, but have priority on keeping BC up), but once you get to 5+ is the point where it's probably better to go all out on the multi-shots. However, that said, you have to be mindful of your focus. For example, if you're going to be using Barrage, it's particularly important that you manage your focus so that you don't let Beast Cleave drop.

One thing I figure a lot of people aren't doing is using Fervor. Fervor gives you more focus to do more multi-shots, as well as gives your pet more focus to do more empowered (via Wild Hunt) Basic Attacks, thereby increasing Beast Cleave damage. Not only that, Fervor is a mere 2100 DPS loss over Dire Beast single target, so unless the fight is pure single target (Dark Animus? Jin'rokh doesn't count because you wouldn't use Dire Beast on that fight since the pools don't benefit them). I used Fervor on all fights this reset (would have gone Dire Beast on Animus, but I forgot).

The only issue I see with Fervor is focus capping during BW, more now when you are not spending 60/30 focus on AmoC. I see two approaches here: either you delay your CDs for a full cycle, emptying your focus bar, then CoS for the 2pc and pop fervor and CDs around 7-10 secs after pull, or either you do as normal, but using Fervor when your PETs focus is about to drop from 50, to keep WH up. But there is a loss on both strats. In the first one you will push your second BW out of trinket proccs (assuming that they procc right on pull) and 5-7 secs out of your prepot. In the second, you will waste almost all of the 50 instant focus to the hunter, and more if lust is active.

I would say that the second approach is the best in most of the scenarios, more if theres any aoe or cleave involved. Even in two targets, you really want to keep Beast Cleave up During BW and while in WH range. My pet's Basic attack crits for an average of 140-160k when above 50 focus, and for the duration of Beast Cleave (for a single multishot) the pet can do 2 Basic Attacks.I think it is a nice tradeoff for an Arcane shot (during BW). Also during BW you will get more Cobra Strikes charges, virtually making every pet Basic Attack to crit during BW. For instance, when pulling HC council, and with only 2 targets at the very start, my first Multishot, with every procc and CD active, yields between 300k and 450k damage only from Beast Cleave, and more as soon as the green dude jumps into the first two.

[Windthorn]

You wouldn't want to spam multi-shot on something like 3 targets (you'd want to be using KC at that point still, but have priority on keeping BC up), but once you get to 5+ is the point where it's probably better to go all out on the multi-shots. However, that said, you have to be mindful of your focus. For example, if you're going to be using Barrage, it's particularly important that you manage your focus so that you don't let Beast Cleave drop.

One thing I figure a lot of people aren't doing is using Fervor. Fervor gives you more focus to do more multi-shots, as well as gives your pet more focus to do more empowered (via Wild Hunt) Basic Attacks, thereby increasing Beast Cleave damage. Not only that, Fervor is a mere 2100 DPS loss over Dire Beast single target, so unless the fight is pure single target (Dark Animus? Jin'rokh doesn't count because you wouldn't use Dire Beast on that fight since the pools don't benefit them). I used Fervor on all fights this reset (would have gone Dire Beast on Animus, but I forgot).

I'm tending towards Fervor also, just prefer it for some reason. That said I am presume pet positioning is not as important with blink strikes and the 30 yard range in making sure the pet can cleave targets that are not entirely stacked like it was prior to Blink Strikes. Also presuming as BM you are macroing /petattack into those major shots with /petassist to speed target switching when needed? Does beast cleaves leave a DOT on the target also? I've never seemed to have picked up the DOT on my UI.

[Aertea]

Multi-Shot spam vs Maintaining Beast Cleave mixing in KCs is more about the damage of Multi-Shot compared to Kill Command. You probably see a lot of conflicting information because the breaking point will be dependent on the amount of mastery you have, as it messes with the ratio.

Basically, figure out your average multi-shot, figure out your average KC. Divide your average KC by your average multi-shot. The resulting number is about the number of targets required to make dropping KC entirely a DPS gain.

[Snickerdoodlez]

Basically, figure out your average multi-shot, figure out your average KC. Divide your average KC by your average multi-shot. The resulting number is about the number of targets required to make dropping KC entirely a DPS gain.

very nice idea.

[Aertea]

As a note, my rudimentary math (using FD for averages on Multi-Shot/Kill Command) says 6.38, or 7 targets. That is a 519 Hunter with Crit > Haste > Mast reforge.

[Deleted]

I'm getting odd results with the latest SimC, when simming 2 targets, it is a DPS gain to just spam multishot over weaving KCs between and just keeping the buff up.

with my gear, 529, no legendary meta

1 target: 175153

2 targets, multishot spam: 230094
2 targets, weaving Kcs between multis: 228328.

3 targets, multishot spam: 322376
3 targets, weaving Kcs between multis: 299861.

This is not 100% accurate, as I can't find the way for the sim to recognize the Beast Cleave buff, or to make it to cast multishot on 4 sec intervals. What I've done is just prioritize KC over MS, keeping KC almost on CD and multi every 3.56, which is the closer to 4 sec I can do.

Anyway, I think Simc heavily inflates the damage of Beast Cleave, as its average damage in the report is more than twice the average damage I see on my logs

BTW, Fervor already sims higher for me than DB, for about 200dps. Theres no reason to not pick it over DB

[Conando]

Unless they fixed it already, the new simcraft isn't modeling Beast Cleave correctly.

[transphenomenal]

SimCraft is basing beast cleave off of the pets basics attacks only, like bite and claw, instead of basic attacks and melee attacks.

[Yuyn]

The problem with using Fervor as BM is focus capping. Every time I tried using it with BM, I just couldn't stand the flood of focus that was leading to constantly being in danger of capping (even outside BW) and constantly needing to reapply Serpent Sting. Hell, even using DB I'm finding myself focus capping during BW often enough to be annoying (esp. with other cooldowns, like Rapid Fire or Stampede).