Holy Paly - Raid cooldown status

[Keiyra]

Because the amount of healers doubles in 25 man while the amount of boss abilities don't.

Putting aside that the damage of boss abilities does increase when going from 10-25...then should none of the raid CD's scale from 10-25? seems to be what you are implying - i'd be fine with that. They'd have to lower the DR of DA, Barrier, and SLT in 25 man's, or implement some cap on total damage prevented. Cause they should either all scale, or none of them should scale. Blizz felt the inequality wasn't warranted and choose to make them all scale with raid size.

[Freia]

Then you aren't trying hard enough - every fight this tier can make use of DA.

Ji-kun? Any use of it on Horridon and Tortos is mitigated by the raid playing properly getting the hell away from the magic damage.

Irrelevant, the fact that prot and ret have it does not mean Holy doesn't need to consider it. Its a tool in their Kit

That isn't irrelevant. They bring the cooldown as well, and it has the exact same effect. A non healing spec druid will not have the same effect with their tranq that a healing druid has outside of maybe HotW. If those other healers pull substantially higher numbers there is no need to bring a holy paladin for devo when other paladins can bring it as well.

[nightfalls]

Regarding Sacrifice - Ironbark, Pain Suppression, Life Cocoon are all superior in that they don't actually kill the healer; the latter two are also stronger abilities.

Regarding Freedom - Don't forget Stampeding Roar.

---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 07:57 PM ----------

Putting aside that the damage of boss abilities does increase when going from 10-25...then should none of the raid CD's scale from 10-25?

Are you seriously trying to compare apples and oranges here? How about this... why don't we up the cap on Light of Dawn from 6 to 15 as well in 25m?

[mcbubble]

Trust me Keiyra, I try hard enough. Saying that DA doesn't have a use for all fights is kind of ridiculous I guess.

Ji Kun is prolly where it is weakest (puddles is the only magic damage i can think of on that fight)

That's the fight I was referring to.
DA is a good tool. very short spell though - so it has to be utilized very well in order to get the most out of it.

My final point to Keiyra: I have an issue with the way the current raid CDs are looking for the other healing classes.
Having a one click ability that is your #1, #2, or #3 heal makes me a bit sad.
I'm pretty confident the majority of the holy paly community agrees that we need some work.

I notice Keiyra over analyzes everything I say, so I'm basically done trying to prove my point to you. Thanks for your inputs though.

[Keiyra]

If those other healers pull substantially higher numbers there is no need to bring a holy paladin for devo when other paladins can bring it as well.

If they are healing that much more than you - you suck as a healer to begin with...come on. My point wasn't that you bring a pally for DA, my point was you should including the healing provided by DA, along with all your other healing, when looking at the meter since that's what mcbubbles was focused on.

[mcbubble]

Is this you Keiyra?
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...eiyra/advanced

Not to sound presumptuous, but to argue against where we stand so adamantly, and you have no ToT heroic experience?
Hopefully I'm wrong, and I apologize. If not, wow.

[Keiyra]

My final point to Keiyra: I have an issue with the way the current raid CDs are looking for the other healing classes.
Having a one click ability that is your #1, #2, or #3 heal makes me a bit sad.

Is the problem that you don't like CD's to be so strong in general? That I can agree with. Any CD in general shouldn't be so much output. Or is just cause its "their" CD's: as in if DA did show on meters and it was #1, 2, or 3 - would you still have a problem with it? (thats where it feels like meter whoring)
And i'm not over analyzing, I take it that people mean what they write. So if you use hyperbole, i'm gonna question it.

[mcbubble]

As I stated earlier - their CD outputs too much.
Either bring DA in line with the other raid CD (give it some HPS, or give us a raid CD that gives us a heal)...or bring the other healer's cool down soit's not so obnoxiously OP.

[nightfalls]

If they are healing that much more than you - you suck as a healer to begin with...come on. My point wasn't that you bring a pally for DA, my point was you should including the healing provided by DA, along with all your other healing, when looking at the meter since that's what mcbubbles was focused on.

The raidbots we're linking are parsing some of the top healers in the world (of which many of the posters here are in these top 100-200 of said parses, some perhaps even on multiple heal classes).

I'm not sure that attacking our positions by saying that we "suck as a healer to begin with" is really convincing.

---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 08:37 PM ----------

Or is just cause its "their" CD's: as in if DA did show on meters and it was #1, 2, or 3 - would you still have a problem with it? (thats where it feels like meter whoring)

This is where I'm coming from "apples and oranges" where you can't really compare things: How would you track the players saved by Ancestral Vigor "on the meters" - how would you track players saved by Rallying Cry "on the meters" - what would you do to show those abilities? We're talking throughput here, there are many abilities all healer specs can use besides Devotion Aura to prevent raid damage.

[Freia]

If they are healing that much more than you - you suck as a healer to begin with...come on. My point wasn't that you bring a pally for DA, my point was you should including the healing provided by DA, along with all your other healing, when looking at the meter since that's what mcbubbles was focused on.

Ok. How about if you can't pull more healing than a nerfed paladin as any class other than a shaman, you suck as a healer and should delete your character. Oh look I can do it too!!

I'll relink these so you can get an actual look.
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00000000111111
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00000000111111

I'll also note that just yesterday paladins were ahead of druids in "all parses" and Holy priests in "top 100 parses". And in a span of a day the logs updated for those jumps and the gap is continuing to narrow between druids and pallies in the top 100 parses. Maybe you should actually learn to utilize your class's tools(which I am positive is a druid) if paladins are still ahead of you.

[Deleted]

Is the problem that you don't like CD's to be so strong in general? That I can agree with. Any CD in general shouldn't be so much output. Or is just cause its "their" CD's: as in if DA did show on meters and it was #1, 2, or 3 - would you still have a problem with it? (thats where it feels like meter whoring)
And i'm not over analyzing, I take it that people mean what they write. So if you use hyperbole, i'm gonna question it.

So these numbers are taken from my guilds logs and im sure you will find that it will be almost identical for most guilds.

Ra-den: 1717857 raid damage per sec = 10307142 raid damage taken over 6 sec = 2061428 reduced damage from Devotion Aura. (I took my own damage taken from Ruin and multiplied it by 25)

Our monk did 2966831 healing with one revival and it did 67.1% overhealing. That means it would have healed for 9017723 if it had done 0% overhealing.

Dark Animus: 400000 instant raid damage every 18 sec, if your raiders suck ass and stand in a lot of shit we can say its 600k raid damage. So 600k x 25 = 15000000 raid damage and 20% of that is 3000000.

These are the only two fights where you will actually see such high raid damage and I just added an extra 200k or 50% to the raid damage on Dark Animus just for the hell of it. Even if Devotion Aura is used in ideal situations it wont even come close to what those revivals, tranqs and hymns will. To be fair if I were a monk right now id be crying for a 1min 30 sec cd on revival so it could be used twice as much because going from 20% to 100% hp is not something that is required to stay alive on any fights.

Even if Devotion Aura did add to the healing meters it would still be 1/3rd as good as revival (or equal but Devotion would do 0% overheal while Revival would do 67% overheal) the maximum output of revival is 9 million or 360k hp for the ENTIRE raid while the maximum "output" of Devotion Aura is 2-3 million or 80-120k reduced damage per player (note that the 3mil and 120k is a fictive number and even if it did that much on Dark Animus you would wipe because your raiders sucks too much)

To make matters worse, Devotion Aura does not reduce any melee damage so it doesnt work or has little effect on half the fights in the game and the only fight where it is the best raid cooldown is Dark Animus as you want to prevent your raiders from getting 1 shot.

[Deleted]

Our monk did 2966831 healing with one revival and it did 67.1% overhealing. That means it would have healed for 9017723 if it had done 0% overhealing.

Link me this log, this is theoretically impossible.

---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 11:43 PM ----------

[/COLOR]

This is where I'm coming from "apples and oranges" where you can't really compare things: How would you track the players saved by Ancestral Vigor "on the meters" - how would you track players saved by Rallying Cry "on the meters" - what would you do to show those abilities? We're talking throughput here, there are many abilities all healer specs can use besides Devotion Aura to prevent raid damage.

It's actually pretty easy when you realize both effects are pretty much absorbs which can be topped up through other healing effects.

---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 11:48 PM ----------

^ That's Method's holy paladin folks...g'head and argue...

For what it's worth he's arguing his toolkit doesn't matter when they exclusively brought paladins and priests on pretty much all their progress this tier for said toolkit.

[Freia]

Link me this log, this is theoretically impossible.

No it isn't it happens in our raids as well. 2607202 healing with 67.8% overheal.

Here are logs of the top monk on Jin'rokh
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/u...?s=1495&e=1686
4,113,653 healing done with 46.6% overheal. Yea impossible.

For what it's worth he's arguing his toolkit doesn't matter when they exclusively brought paladins and priests on pretty much all their progress this tier for said toolkit.

No he's not. He said DA is bad and that if paladins don't have the throughput they aren't going to be brought basically. And I love that you act like nothing has happened between the time of their progression and now.

[Deleted]

No it isn't it happens in our raids as well. 2607202 healing with 67.8% overheal.



No he's not. He said DA is bad and that if paladins don't have the throughput they aren't going to be brought basically. And I love that you act like nothing has happened between the time of their progression and now.

Nah sorry, not from one revival.

---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 12:39 AM ----------

Here are logs of the top monk on Jin'rokh
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/u...?s=1495&e=1686
4,113,653 healing done with 46.6% overheal. Yea impossible.

Are you serious?

[Freia]

Yea 1 revival, you want me to link more? The first day of the patch our monk was laughing that one revival was doing more than 7m healing. Keep denying whatever you want.

[Deleted]

Yea 1 revival, you want me to link more? The first day of the patch our monk was laughing that one revival was doing more than 7m healing. Keep denying whatever you want.

You can link more, just preferably from a fight without a 60% healing buff...

[Kyuuseishu]

You can link more, just preferably from a fight without a 60% healing buff...

Looking at a few of the revivals on fight like Iron Qon and Magaera, I would say the healing power of revival has a range of about 2.5-4 million depending on the state of the user at the time of casting (temp buffs etc)

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/v...?s=5101&e=5691
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/b...?s=3693&e=4028

EDIT: 9 million does seem a tad inflated, but what I believe most are unhappy about is DA requires very specific situation to get a half decent use out of it, aka a short burst of heavy magic raid damage. Every other situation it will only see a small role in terms of damage prevented, whereas abilities like Revival and Tranq have a large diversity in the situations they can be used in. Ranging from pre-empting raid damage be it physical or magical and using it to brute force heal through an ability, or as a save when something unexpected happens. You can't get that type of diversity out of DA at this moment.

[Lucyrotten]

Heroic Dark Animus does 10 million damage to the raid unmitigated. Devotion Aura prevents 2 million of that, Revival tops off the raid for the remaining 8 million. Although I certainly see the benefit to having a cushion on the front end of that damage, you really can't argue that Revival isn't stronger in that particular situation.

[kenn9530]

As I stated earlier - their CD outputs too much.
Either bring DA in line with the other raid CD (give it some HPS, or give us a raid CD that gives us a heal)...or bring the other healer's cool down soit's not so obnoxiously OP.

paladins have more than enough tools already, guardian of ancient kings is one of your major healing cds, paladins are very strong healers both single target and aoe when handled properly, if paladins were to get a raid healing cooldown then the other heals would have to be brought down to balance this out. The other healers are balanced around these raid cooldowns and even with these a holy paladin has much more output than any other healer, healing cooldowns are designed to be used for maximum possible healing so there will be a high percentage of healing done. The only problem there is atm is currently absorbs are very strong which devalues other healers by a fair margin.

Its not all about the meters and if this is your primary concern then you have your priorities very wrong, i do agree that all utilities should be redesigned so that world of logs can measure how effective they are though.

All healers are in a good place, it does depend on the fight but Paladins and Disc is one of the best healing specs currently, in every fight there has to be a top healer and a bottom healer though.

[Freia]

The other healers are balanced around these raid cooldowns and even with these a holy paladin has much more output than any other healer

All healers are in a good place, it does depend on the fight but Paladins and Disc is one of the best healing specs currently, in every fight there has to be a top healer and a bottom healer though.

Funny, because that is completely false. It seems you are stuck in pre-5.3.

You can link more, just preferably from a fight without a 60% healing buff...

I forgot about the healing buff, I wanted short fights that were likely only to see 1 revival use.

Tonight on a short wipe on Heroic Durumu, our monk did 1 revival.
3085550 healing done with 59.5 overheal. Had it all been effective it would of been 7618641 healing.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2454&e=2806

These logs show 2 revival uses. When you do all the math it would equal 14425837.93 total output from two revivals. So about 7212918.965 for 1.
There, are those numbers better? Its not 9m but between 7-8m is still pretty damn good.