Using a STR weapon with high Ilvl on BrM?

[Deleted]

So I had to step on my brewmaster alt for last nights guildrun on HC Jin'rokh. We had noone that wanted "Worldbreaker's Stormscyth" so I took it seeing as i had a 516 fistweapon but no other onehander wile running with the 496 staff. After looking at the actual gains from str for monks im starting to feel that its not "that bad" seeing as i still get AP equal to the str.

Now to the question, if I would have 2x 522 agility onehander drop, would I replace the HC weapon with that?

My char: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rills/advanced

[Gags]

This may be useless information, but i recently picked up heroic str mace for my enhance shammie and the difference it made was a hell of a lot. I think a lot of physical dps classes come down to weapon damage and the higher that can be the better. As always sim it out if you can, but from my experiences, despite it being a strength weapon, the much higher weapon damage wins out overall.

[Deleted]

This may be useless information, but i recently picked up heroic str mace for my enhance shammie and the difference it made was a hell of a lot. I think a lot of physical dps classes come down to weapon damage and the higher that can be the better. As always sim it out if you can, but from my experiences, despite it being a strength weapon, the much higher weapon damage wins out overall.

This is pretty much what I was thinking aswell, I mean it was a nobrainer to take it over my old sha touched 496 and I can see a big jump in the DPS. Is it really possible to use SimC with a tank character though? I mean my dmg output differs even from try to try depending on what the boss does to me.

[Kisho]

It's a pretty awful weapon with hardly any useful stats for tanking purposes. Hit and expertise are alright I guess, but the lack of agility really hurts.

Also remember that dealing damage isn't the primary focus for a tank. If you're getting rid of a sha-touched weapon then you're going to lose a hell of a lot of agility, just for some extra DPS.

Personally, I wouldn't use it. I'd rather wait for some halfway decent agility weapons. But if you're surviving ok and want some extra DPS, then it could work I guess.

[Deleted]

You lose the crit part of ~700 agility in exchange for ~700 weapon dps and a fair bit of secondary stats. I feel fairly confident saying that the strength wep will be far superior to a normal agi one hander when it comes to dps. I'd say that it becomes a bit more interesting if you have a thunderforged str wep vs a normal agi wep, without doing any math I imagine that it'd be quite even in regards to dps (but the agi wep coming out ahead due to the added mitigation). Regardless you do lose a bit of survivability using the str wep, so it's up to you if you think the dps gain is worth it.

[Ragethorn]

BrM's focus mainly on stats. Weapon damage doesn't impact us as much as it does for a Windwalker.

[Deleted]

It's a pretty awful weapon with hardly any useful stats for tanking purposes. Hit and expertise are alright I guess, but the lack of agility really hurts.

Also remember that dealing damage isn't the primary focus for a tank. If you're getting rid of a sha-touched weapon then you're going to lose a hell of a lot of agility, just for some extra DPS.

Personally, I wouldn't use it. I'd rather wait for some halfway decent agility weapons. But if you're surviving ok and want some extra DPS, then it could work I guess.

I understand what you mean, im only doing 10mans however and being able to pull equal dps to a pure dpser is pretty sweet for the raid. However the survivability part with DW compared to staff seems alot higher for me, It might be that its new and shiny but I atleast "feel" like I have a much higher uptime of elusive brew compared to when I used the staff.
As Cookie was saying, I will prolly have to do alot of testing if I get a thunderforged Agi weapon and compare it to the HC str one.

Thanks for the input all of you, as I belive there is no definitive answer to the question im happy to get all the input I can get.

[Deleted]

I use the Heroic Thunderforged axe from Jin'Rokh too, due to the lack of heroic Agility weapons dropping (none so far). Even though it has strength, the weapon damage increased my DPS dramatically. In my opinion, tank DPS is extremely important (especially in 10 man) so I'm quite happy with it. For my Windwalker spec it's better than a 535 ilvl agi weapon would be... The slight survivability you lose due to the agility is negligible, I'm inclined to say you should always use a strength weapon over an agility weapon if it has a significantly higher item level.

[Deleted]

It's a pretty awful weapon with hardly any useful stats for tanking purposes. Hit and expertise are alright I guess, but the lack of agility really hurts.

Depends what content you do. I'd personally value hit/exp and perhaps even weapon damage over mastery since I have absolutely no use for it. Comparing 496 staff vs 535 str axe and say 522 tia-tia you get:
Staff has 1075 more agility.
Dual-wielders have 298 more stamina and 1024 more secondaries, and a chunk of weapon damage. Strength as well, which gives 1-1 attack power per point? So not completely useless.

If the staff didn't have that huge amount of mastery I'd be more tempted, but as is I'd go for the dual-wielding.

[Deleted]

Besides the subjective arguments here are some stats thrown at those weapons. Even upgraded to 543 the strength weapon loses by a significant margin to a 522 agi weapon and a 496 sha-touched weapon.

So objectively it seems an awful choice. I believe the shiny high iLvl and the shiny high dps you are doing with it make you believe it to be a better choice.

While I agree that tank dps is not negligible it should not be such a priority to drop a perfectly fine weapon.

Edit: Compared the wrong sha-touched weapon. Guess I should read more thoroughly.
Still though: 1000 Agi vs. 300 Sta + 750 secondary stats. It's close ... yeah, I guess the Ilvl is too tasty.

[Deleted]

Edit: Compared the wrong sha-touched weapon. Guess I should read more thoroughly.
Still though: 1000 Agi vs. 300 Sta + 750 secondary stats. It's close ... yeah, I guess the Ilvl is too tasty.

You're forgetting double possible prismatic socket on dual-wielding. I also forgot duo dancing steel, which probably puts the agility a lot closer together.

[SurrealNight]

Does Simcraft work for BrM in gauging base DPS between gear at least? If survival isn't an issue then I would probably go with better DPS (assuming a STR user doesn't need). Fortunately been showed with weapons this tier so never had to consider it.

[gynshon]

I understand what you mean, im only doing 10mans however and being able to pull equal dps to a pure dpser is pretty sweet for the raid. However the survivability part with DW compared to staff seems alot higher for me, It might be that its new and shiny but I atleast "feel" like I have a much higher uptime of elusive brew compared to when I used the staff.
As Cookie was saying, I will prolly have to do alot of testing if I get a thunderforged Agi weapon and compare it to the HC str one.

Thanks for the input all of you, as I belive there is no definitive answer to the question im happy to get all the input I can get.

This is the problem that the Devs are trying to address. So many people are going to be in for a huge shock when they nerf the hell out of us DPS-wise because we consistently outperform the pure DPS classes. Trust me, people are pissed. Might as well get used to it now, so it isn't a surprise when it comes.

As far as EB uptime, it is smoother generation using DW with less chance of a bad RNG string where your stacks could fall off. That might seem why it is better.

[Deleted]

This is the problem that the Devs are trying to address. So many people are going to be in for a huge shock when they nerf the hell out of us DPS-wise because we consistently outperform the pure DPS classes. Trust me, people are pissed. Might as well get used to it now, so it isn't a surprise when it comes.

As far as EB uptime, it is smoother generation using DW with less chance of a bad RNG string where your stacks could fall off. That might seem why it is better.

Is it the general Vengence nerf that you are talking about when you say that we will get nerfed? Because if that is the case then im fairly sure that it wont affect most people, prolly only when solotanking extreamly hardhitting bosses. If vengence is capping out on 30% of max HP that would mean that mine would cap out on 180k AP. Taking into accout the higher ilvl in 5.4 and we will be up to 200k I would guess. But yeah, for highend raiders that are pooling up vengence it will be a sad day :/

Edit: I read your post again and I agree that our dps currently is pretty stupid. However same goes to say for most tank classes. I think they need to do something more drastic then capping vengence to put tanks in line.

[gynshon]

Is it the general Vengence nerf that you are talking about when you say that we will get nerfed? Because if that is the case then im fairly sure that it wont affect most people, prolly only when solotanking extreamly hardhitting bosses. If vengence is capping out on 30% of max HP that would mean that mine would cap out on 180k AP. Taking into accout the higher ilvl in 5.4 and we will be up to 200k I would guess. But yeah, for highend raiders that are pooling up vengence it will be a sad day :/

Edit: I read your post again and I agree that our dps currently is pretty stupid. However same goes to say for most tank classes. I think they need to do something more drastic then capping vengence to put tanks in line.

It won't be a 30% cap. People really need to read more. GC came up with a number off the top of his head and all of a sudden it turned into fact. It isn't. He clarified later it was a random number. My guess it will be closer to 10% cap. That would be a 60-70k for most high end geared monks not gemming stamina. I will routinely hit 130kish on most fights without gimmicks, so a 10% cap would be cutting that vengeance in half.

Put that into perspective of what effect that will have on our dps. I know on some fights I see about a 70kish vengeance because the boss doesn't hit that hard and we are below all dps consistently. This is most likely what they will be aiming for.

[Deleted]

It won't be a 30% cap. People really need to read more. GC came up with a number off the top of his head and all of a sudden it turned into fact. It isn't. He clarified later it was a random number. My guess it will be closer to 10% cap. That would be a 60-70k for most high end geared monks not gemming stamina. I will routinely hit 130kish on most fights without gimmicks, so a 10% cap would be cutting that vengeance in half.

Put that into perspective of what effect that will have on our dps. I know on some fights I see about a 70kish vengeance because the boss doesn't hit that hard and we are below all dps consistently. This is most likely what they will be aiming for.

That makes sence, I cant really say that I have a problem with it. Sure doing good dps is fun but topping meters on singletarget fights is damn stupid as a tank imo.

Just tested the str axe out in lfr, my dps skyrocketed and survivability felt better then before with the sha touched staff.

[Ulfhedinn]

STR weapon may increase your actual DPS but it is not likely to help you are all for tanking... the thing you are doing. You don't need more threat and if tank dps matter and your slightly lower Brm dps isn't enough then that is a raid problem not a you problem.

Hitting harder does nothing for survivability.

[Oxyra]

As a tank, the following happens.
Agi/Str are mitigation stats, though very minimal.
When you don't have vengeance, Agi is better for you.
Agi grants you 1AP per point of Agi? (I think)
Thus, when you have 200k+ vengeance as a tank, your strength weapon's top end damage matters a lot more than the actual stats on the weapon.

Example: I've used a Heroic Agi Polearm for the longest, because when I used to raid with my guild in T14. I never got a Starshatter or Sha weapon, the polearm had Mastery/Haste. AMAZING stats, and a huge top end upgrade over a normal mode Starshatter.

[Jaja]

Example: I've used a Heroic Agi Polearm for the longest, because when I used to raid with my guild in T14. I never got a Starshatter or Sha weapon, the polearm had Mastery/Haste. AMAZING stats, and a huge top end upgrade over a normal mode Starshatter.

And you wonder why you haven't cleared normal....

OT: Honestly if you want to beat the DPS then why not go DPS? That way you can beat them at their own game and not with some gimmicky mechanic like vengeance and high ilvl strength weps. Literally the only benefit you gain from this weapon is the actual weapon damage, if you were thinking of it being viable for tanking I would say no. If you want to beat the DPS then yeah probably.

[Deleted]

And you wonder why you haven't cleared normal....

What you on about? The polearm was amazing for blood dk's if you couldn't get sha of fear to drop the 2h axe. Even then the 502 agi polearm was probably very close to the 496 axe anyway. Mastery and stamina is what they want, and haste is better than crit. They don't care for strength much compared to mastery/stamina.