Warlock patch 5.4 discussion

[Deleted]

Tried that out a couple weeks ago, it was insanely strong with MF if you could manage to get 2 SoC's (SB version and normal cast) without them exploding early due to dots. Will be really good for aoe assuming it is intended, I could see it being a major strategy for any fight with heavy burst aoe.

dont think it will be worth it as you will be spending precious MF time swapping dots around, optimally you'd do that on your last seed b4 the buff ends to get 1 extra MF seed up.

[EvreliaGaming]

So which trinkets would you run with at launch as Affliction, if you had the OPs options: HTF Breath, H UVLS, NTF Wushoolay, N Cha-ye. Assuming you don't have T16 2set, which ofc you won't at launch.

HTF Breath and H UVLS.

Assuming they were all the same ilvl, UVLS is still 2k dps ahead in Simcraft, but the RNG it brings would mean its probably not worth the effort. If there's any ilvl discrepancy, just take whichever is highest out of UVLS/Breath/Wush.

Summary: Come patch day, use the highest ilvl trinkets you have. If they're all the same ilvl, take Breath/Wush for consistency, or UVLS + Breath for a small theoretical max increase, with more RNG.

[bastosdiegol]

HTF Breath and H UVLS.

Assuming they were all the same ilvl, UVLS is still 2k dps ahead in Simcraft, but the RNG it brings would mean its probably not worth the effort. If there's any ilvl discrepancy, just take whichever is highest out of UVLS/Breath/Hydra.

I had worse lucky with drops.
In my case I only have: N Thunder UVLS, H Thunder Cha-ye and N Hydra.
Should I discard Hydra for the start of the new patch?

Thank you in advance!

[Keldion]

Summary: Come patch day, use the highest ilvl trinkets you have. If they're all the same ilvl, take Breath/Hydra for consistency, or UVLS + Breath for a small theoretical max increase, with more RNG.

Breath and Hydra are the same trinket. Are you referring to Wushoolay's Final Choice?

[EvreliaGaming]

Breath and Hydra are the same trinket. Are you referring to Wushoolay's Final Choice?

My mistake, it's late. Yes, that's what I meant.

[JV Chequer]

For aff I think Wushy is kinda better than Breath since 10stack Agony can hit really hard.

am I wrong?

[Xorn]

For aff I think Wushy is kinda better than Breath since 10stack Agony can hit really hard.

am I wrong?

You are not wrong. Wush and BBoY are incredible trinkets for affilction because of the DoT snap shotting at the final stack of the buff.

[Deleted]

N UVLS 2/2 has ~0.53 RPPM iirc. N Wush has ~1.2 RPPM iirc. I don't believe LFR Wush proc rate is that much lower, nor is the int difference absolutely major. Wush at 10 stacks is a very powerful int proc, and I do believe even the LFR version would be better than N UVLS, just due to the proc rate on it. I'm not at a computer currently so can't just pull up all the trinkets to compare them right now, but I'm relatively certain you would rather be using N Breath 2/2 and LFR Wush 2/2 than the other 2 trinkets. I'm not 100% certain about that, due to being unable to backup my stats right now, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.

The RPPM on Wushoolay doesn't depend on itemlevel, so it's 1,21 for the LFR version as well. Of course it gives a lot less intellect than HTF 2/2 version. Personally in the original question's case (normal Breath, normal UVLS, LFR Wushoolay, and valor trinket) I would go with Breath and Wushoolay still. It has become clear though that there are different opinions about this, and also the difference is quite small so the choice doesn't matter all that much.

- - - Updated - - -

For aff I think Wushy is kinda better than Breath since 10stack Agony can hit really hard.

am I wrong?

I think you are right, but there are a few issues. First of all, Wushoolay has hit rating on it, which can be a major problem if you are getting a lot of hit from other gear as well. Secondly, the only case where this would matter is if you run Wushoolay + UVLS vs Breath + UVLS. Those 3 are considered the best trinkets compared to the rest by a long distance. But if you run Wushoolay + UVLS, you have 2 procs that have extremely short windows of power (10 stacks and UVLS short proc). That makes the combination less powerful than you might expect based on its parts, because it would be very inconsistent DPS if you play with that.

That's why I think most people agree that in 5.3
Wushoolay + Breath > UVLS + Breath > Wushoolay + UVLS, even though considered separately Wushoolay is better than Breath.

For 5.4 however, the trinkets have changed a lot. Wushoolay at 1,21 RPPM and 10s duration is totally insane, and in my opinion by far the strongest ''old'' trinket. I would take a normal Wushoolay over heroic UVLS without a second thought, but apparently not everyone agrees with this.

It will still be true that combining Wushoolay with UVLS is extremely RNG dependant, after the patch even more so because the 10-stack window is half as long. So given that I would take Wushoolay almost regardless of itemlevel, I believe the best trinket combo to go into the patch by far is Wushoolay + Breath.

I would probably not even drop one of HTF Wushoolay or HTF Breath for a Bindings, even if it is HWF. The stats won't be all that amazing if you pick it up in the first week of heroics, and I think the proc is very bad for Affliction compared to all other procs. Of course it gets stronger as you get gear, while Wushoolay will lose value as you might go over the hit cap. KTT or BBoY would replace Breath even on normal version, and getting both would replace anything else.

Keep in mind I don't have any really solid simulation (and I don't believe there will be one if you consider that almost no fight in T14 comes close to single target), so this is mostly my personal opinion and my reasons for it

[dahri]

I'm 13/13 myself but the only toon I play is my lock. I only really keep up with warlocks so as a general rule I have very little idea how good or bad things are for other classes. I see these comments posted but as I don't know the other side of the coin I just go with whatever the officers decide. This has led me to wondering the following a few times, is there another class that currently depends more on strong trinkets/good trinket usage than us locks?

Fire mages probably. But wusho is bis for warlocks and for balance it is breath and cha'yes.

[EvreliaGaming]

I would probably not even drop one of HTF Wushoolay or HTF Breath for a Bindings, even if it is HWF. The stats won't be all that amazing if you pick it up in the first week of heroics, and I think the proc is very bad for Affliction compared to all other procs. Of course it gets stronger as you get gear, while Wushoolay will lose value as you might go over the hit cap. KTT or BBoY would replace Breath even on normal version, and getting both would replace anything else.

+1

Though I have to decide whether to pick bindings up anway for Demo/Destro ;/

[coupes]

what two are going to be best for demo not tested that much on ptr so any feed back would be grate

[Deleted]

I am a PvE lock.. but damn, the s14 set is a nice looking set...

[Woz]

+1

Though I have to decide whether to pick bindings up anway for Demo/Destro ;/

You'll want to pick up a H or HWF version of it for Affliction at some point anyway so you might as well pick it up regardless.

[Deleted]

You'll want to pick up a H or HWF version of it for Affliction at some point anyway so you might as well pick it up regardless.

Yeah but other classes might benefit way more. A 20s proc with 115s ICD might be bad for Affliction, I imagine it could be fine for other specs that don't rely on dots so much. Personally I will recommend loot council to not give Bindings to a warlock, but BBoY should definitely go to a warlock, with KTT being the middle-of-the-road case where all classes benefit roughly equally.

[Thelm]

Summary: Come patch day, use the highest ilvl trinkets you have. If they're all the same ilvl, take Breath/Wush for consistency, or UVLS + Breath for a small theoretical max increase, with more RNG.

This is basically what I was thinking. Thanks for the input.

[Count Zero]

Well I really hope that before our first official raid night (we're doing an unofficial Flex run on launch day) I can get something that will let me drop some hit, so I can switch to Wush (normal) over UVLS (lfr)

[cabana]

HTF Breath and H UVLS.

Assuming they were all the same ilvl, UVLS is still 2k dps ahead in Simcraft, but the RNG it brings would mean its probably not worth the effort. If there's any ilvl discrepancy, just take whichever is highest out of UVLS/Breath/Wush.

Summary: Come patch day, use the highest ilvl trinkets you have. If they're all the same ilvl, take Breath/Wush for consistency, or UVLS + Breath for a small theoretical max increase, with more RNG.

Can you please explain to me what a theoretical max increase is. Because in 5.4 your theory will be so inconsistent that it will hurt your dps, the raid, and progression. Are you not aware of how many "on demand" adds we will have to gun down throughout this tier. Corruption on Norushen, Arcweavers on Nazgrim, Missles on Blackfuse...and that's just on top of my head. Your chances at maximizing damage on them is a lot greater with a trinket that procs more. Progression is based around consistency. You shouldn't be advocating anything but.

[Deleted]

Can you please explain to me what a theoretical max increase is. Because in 5.4 your theory will be so inconsistent that it will hurt your dps, the raid, and progression. Are you not aware of how many "on demand" adds we will have to gun down throughout this tier. Corruption on Norushen, Arcweavers on Nazgrim, Missles on Blackfuse...and that's just on top of my head. Your chances at maximizing damage on them is a lot greater with a trinket that procs more. Progression is based around consistency. You shouldn't be advocating anything but.

Think you've just said what evrelia said almost, all he meant i think is that you could chance your luck to do more dps at your own risk to the RNG gods. Guess its down to the player to make that choice.

Think we all know that sim results for dps have to be taken wisely, as we wont have 1000's of goes at said boss to even out the rng.

[EvreliaGaming]

Can you please explain to me what a theoretical max increase is. Because in 5.4 your theory will be so inconsistent that it will hurt your dps, the raid, and progression. Are you not aware of how many "on demand" adds we will have to gun down throughout this tier. Corruption on Norushen, Arcweavers on Nazgrim, Missles on Blackfuse...and that's just on top of my head. Your chances at maximizing damage on them is a lot greater with a trinket that procs more. Progression is based around consistency. You shouldn't be advocating anything but.

I'm not advocating anything, I'm simply stating facts. What you do with that information is up to you. The UVLS + Breath combination will, on average, offer slightly higher DPS, but the variance will be a lot higher and is probably not worth it. As I very clearly said there and in my other posts.

Your logic is flawed though btw. If that were the case we'd just always take the trinket that procced the most regardless of how good the proc was. I also wouldn't say progression is always based around consistency.

[Woz]

Yeah but other classes might benefit way more. A 20s proc with 115s ICD might be bad for Affliction, I imagine it could be fine for other specs that don't rely on dots so much. Personally I will recommend loot council to not give Bindings to a warlock, but BBoY should definitely go to a warlock, with KTT being the middle-of-the-road case where all classes benefit roughly equally.

Most definitely wouldn't take the trinket over someone who could benefit from it right away. It's more of a "this will be BiS eventually" type of thing so if everyone one else has it (or you're already massed a number of items from SoO and the stat bloat is hitting you) you should pick it up.