Warlock patch 5.4 discussion

[Deleted]

The latest version of KJC is going to be a muppet trap because with how buffed fel flame is its really not going to be that beneficial to cast incinerate while moving unless it recieves some almighty buffs

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That's just one extra DS during the whole fight. It's something like 1.5% dps increase in a 10-min patchwerk fight. In movement fights or fights with burn phases it "scales with skill", since those who are aware of the fight mechanics can better time their DSs with moments of no movement and burst windows. But on the other hand, if there's a lot of movement, KJC is better anyway.

Edit. Oh, if you were talking about pvp then you can ignore my comments, I don't do pvp much

It actually ensures something else to, not that this matters but its something that pisses me off sometimes.

When fights get to like 3-4mins long (like they are for me currently) it becomes exceptionally difficult as destruction to do any real damage in comparision to fire mages and some of the other more bursty specs, this ensures that we get some more on demand burst and is a way of ensuring that we dont fall off as hard as we do currently.

I know its a minor point but its something thats really important to me because i hate not being competitive and because destructions burst is so low in comparision to some of the specs its a big + to be able to get some control over that and maybe sacrifice some dps for damage when i need it without feeling insanely gimped.

TL DR - Control is awesome

[Xorn]

The latest version of KJC is going to be a muppet trap because with how buffed fel flame is its really not going to be that beneficial to cast incinerate unless it recieves some almighty buffs

Fixed that for ya.

[Deleted]

Lol Xorn +1

Infracted for spam.

[Rayaleith]

I wonder if anyone would take MF now. I still believe new AV is extremely boring. They should have been more creative with 90 talents. I do not comment on KJC since I do not use it at all the past 3 weeks.

[Deleted]

That's just one extra DS during the whole fight.

why is only just one extra ds? i think that really is double uses on the whole figth. if in a figth now have time to use 3 times x 20 sec of ds , with the new design you will have 6 times for 20 sec or 3 times for 40 sec. it's double not only one charge.
for example in second -1 , cast one charge , at +19 sec on the figth cast 2 charge and at 1:59 you will be able to cast again ds and in 2:19 the second charge and so on. is like conflagrate in destro.

this the max uptime of ds related to the length of the figth in minutes asuming both charges are used on cd

1 minute 66,67%
2 minutes 33,33%
3 minutes 44,44%
4 minutes 33,33%
5 minutes 40,00%
6 minutes 33,33%
7 minutes 38,10%
8 minutes 33,33%
9 minutes 37,04%
10 minutes 33,33%
11 minutes 36,36%
12 minutes 33,33%

[Deleted]

It works the same as conflag, you start with 2 but they only recharge one at a time.

[Twilight Cultist]

why is only just one extra ds? i think that really is double uses on the whole figth. if in a figth now have time to use 3 times x 20 sec of ds , with the new design you will have 6 times for 20 sec or 3 times for 40 sec. it's double not only one charge.
for example in second -1 , cast one charge , at +19 sec on the figth cast 2 charge and at 1:59 you will be able to cast again ds and in 2:19 the second charge and so on. is like conflagrate in destro.

really is that every 120 seconds you have 40 seconds of DS , 33.33% uptime if the length in minutes of the figth is a multiple of two.

Thats not how conflag works at all...

Can't remember the cd off the top of my head, but lets say conflag has a 8 second cd. You have two charges. You cast conflag. You have one charge left and the 2nd charge is on cd. After three second, you cast conflag again. The second charge is on cd and the first charge will be up in 5 seconds. After 5 seconds, you have 1 charge. You will get another charge in 8 seconds.

So you only get one extra charge of DS with AV. But it allows you to have longer sustained burst in the beginning of a fight, and it also won't be a dps lose to not use DS as soon as it is off cd because you have the other charge cd, so you can wait for procs as long as you don't have two charges.

Edit: Here is Hand of Gul'dan. Two charges with a 15 second cd

http://i.imgur.com/AWVhUSb.jpg

I cast it back to back and the spell is put on cd

http://i.imgur.com/wRhnS83.jpg

After the first charge is off cd, you have the wait another 15 seconds for the second charge

http://i.imgur.com/lzqgHlo.jpg

[Ciremyk]

If you use DS on cooldown :
T+0 > T+20 : Charge 1
T+20 > T+40 : Charge 2
Now what do we have ? DS is on cooldown for 100sec.
T+140 > T+160 : Charge 1
T+160 > t+260 : Nothing cus DS will still be on cooldown.

Archimonde darkness is quite good for an opening burst in affli / destro but as you cant stay 40sec in meta ( and don't forget we'll lose 2t15 ) it's not THAT good for demo.

if the encounter is really really really static, of course we'll take Archimonde darkness, but we have to keep in mind the longer the fight is the less this talent will be good.

[TyrianFC]

I actually really like how KJC is gna be a big damage loss now, if you find casting while moving fun then go have fun.

Blizzard are doing an awesome job of calling players bluff atm because like is said above everyone is going to default to AD because the ability to have DS for every amp proc with a few embers saved is going to be the clear way to maximise damage, the problem i have is that Destro was amazing for aoe in t15, we are going to lose that as stuff stands and if thats the case i want mage level single target, but i dont see the spec getting buffed by almost 25-30%.

All depends on what side of the coin blizzard fall down on in regard to amp trinket and 4 part i feel.

I find it hilarious that so many people claimed KJC was 'essential' to the Warlock class currently to remain viable, yet are flocking to default to the new AD.

I think Blizzard has done a good job of making many people look rather silly.

[Deleted]

Yes Twiligth , you are rigth , as ciremyk have represented with numbers.. But i don't believe that Blizzard redesign a talent only to give us 1 extra DS every combat for initial burst......
I think that DS will have separated cd timers for every charge or reduced the CD to 60 sec. otherwise this talent don't worth.

[Deleted]

Yes Twiligth , you are rigth , as ciremyk have represented with numbers.. But i don't believe that Blizzard redesign a talent only to give us 1 extra DS every combat for initial burst......
I think that DS will have separated cd timers for every charge or reduced the CD to 60 sec. otherwise this talent don't worth.

This is far more than "just" 1 more DS per fight (which is already a lot) : you can choose when to use your charges (=> along with trinkets procs, exec range...) without losing any uptime. This is huge.

[Deleted]

I actually really like how KJC is gna be a big damage loss now, if you find casting while moving fun then go have fun.

Blizzard are doing an awesome job of calling players bluff atm because like is said above everyone is going to default to AD because the ability to have DS for every amp proc with a few embers saved is going to be the clear way to maximise damage, the problem i have is that Destro was amazing for aoe in t15, we are going to lose that as stuff stands and if thats the case i want mage level single target, but i dont see the spec getting buffed by almost 25-30%.

All depends on what side of the coin blizzard fall down on in regard to amp trinket and 4 part i feel.

I thought destro was quite alright with amp trinket and 4pT16... Demanding to be the very highest single damage spec just because your AoE is no longer amazing is not that reasonable. I don't think the devs will care that much about it anyway, since we already have 2 specs that seems to be at the top next tier.

[Deleted]

This is far more than "just" 1 more DS per fight (which is already a lot) : you can choose when to use your charges (=> along with trinkets procs, exec range...) without losing any uptime. This is huge.

As a demo-warlock this allows you to use your imp swarm on cooldown without having to care about wheter it will be ready for your next dark soul again, as you can just delay that dark soul. Actually, I would use only one charge for the demonology-opener and save the second charge for the first time imp swarm comes off cooldown.

I think this is pretty huge, too. But once again.. these strong "non-KJC"-talents favor the least movement-dependent spec, which should be the already strong demonology. Destruction falls behind even further as it stands. In the end, I don't really care which spec dominates T16 as I kind of enjoy all of them. The only thing, that really bugs me is the fact, that I have to loot a f****ng thunderforged heroic UVLS until the patch hits, if Demo makes it.

[Deleted]

Ye we are fine once we get the Amp trinket and 4 part, before that if we are left as we are is an entirely different story, ill still clear all the content as destruction regardles anyway, but no where in that post did i demand to be the highest single target spec, i would think it reasonable to make the spec have a niche of some sort, i said though that i dont see the spec getting buffed by 25% (where mages are atm).

We will see when the number pass comes, although i do think the new version of AV is something the devs can use to say our damage will be mostly fine.

[Kildragon]

Fixed that for ya.

Incinerate still deals far more damage than fel flame, fel flame is limited by the gcd, spamming it will cause you to go oom too fast and incinerate has t16 2 piece interaction.

[sugarfree]

Just in time with this SL change. With the change to Howl being baseline, I need a keybind for it! I'll be giving up DB or SP for SL if this is going to be good.

[Deleted]

Incinerate still deals far more damage than fel flame, fel flame is limited by the gcd, spamming it will cause you to go oom too fast and incinerate has t16 2 piece interaction.

Actually go try it with a low haste and high crit build, you will be really shocked how close it actually is.

[Staalie]

Guys, if howl is being baselined, what will take up it's spot in the CC tier....??

[xskarma]

Guys, if howl is being baselined, what will take up it's spot in the CC tier....??

• Demonic Breath, a new talent replacing Howl of Terror. The Warlock sends out a cone of Shadow damage, snaring targets, has a 20-second cooldown.

This will. Current snare is 50% if I'm not mistaken.

[Kildragon]

Regarding the entire T6 talent row, I feel like blizz still has some design tweaks to make. To start with, at this point KJC should really just be returned to its old version. The only reason every lock took it is because MF was not an actual damage increase and AV has always sucked. Sure it added a bit of free dps, but not enough to offset the gains from taking KJC. With the new versions of both talents, AV is actually a really strong talent that has the potential to be a significant dps increase if used properly. MF is the same way now, offering a significant dps increase if used in the right situations. Suddenly KJC actually seems like the lackluster talent, only affecting the basic filler spells. It's hard to quantify the dps gain from being able to move while casting, but I just don't see many instances where being able to cast any of the fillers while moving would warrant not taking either of the other two options.

Demo pve only used KJC for some minor convenience already but the new version will be entirely useless.

Demo pvp used it to get soul fires, and CCs off. No demo pvper ever casted sb anyways so without thr CC part there's really no point to taking it.

Affliction pve used it the most really, but with fel flame being buffed and damage being moved away from MG, KJC was already going to lose some value. Now with the new AV and MF and the loss of being able to cast haunt/ua while moving, on top of the other changes I don't see a point in ever taking it.

Affliction pvp is going to miss the old KJC the most, but the new AV is going to be pretty clutch so it might not be needed. Again, the changes away from relying on MG and the loss of being able to cc while moving make this talent far less attractive than it previously was.

Destro pve kinda got left out by the last row talent changes but my guess would be that AV is going to be the go-to choice. Destro already has a stronger version of fel flame and not being able to cast CB while moving is the biggest loss here. The new MF is just useless for destro without F&B being included, leaving only AV as a decent choice.

Destro pvp is probably the spec that lost the most due to the KJC change. As usual, the loss of CCs while moving hurts the talent's value but the single biggest problem is with not being able to get those CB's off. Since destro never got the gap opener it needed, KJC kinda filled in that spot since we were simply able to move away. It really made a huge difference. AV is going to be nice in pvp as well, leaving KJC as an undesirable talent choice. MF already lost its attractiveness for RBGs since it doesn't affect F&B.

Now mind you, I'm just trying to argue that KJC in its iteration on live actually fits into the talent row considering the changes to AV and MF. Nerfing the talent while also buffing the other two just meant it suddenly became the least attractive talent. Also, MF really needs to include HoG/chaos wave for demo and F&B for destro to be viable for either spec.

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Actually go try it with a low haste and high crit build, you will be really shocked how close it actually is.

It might be close until you get the 2pc t16. Even before, close =/= as good or better. As long as incinerate is the optimal filler there is no problem. If anything it's a good thing, seeing how little of a dps loss movement is.