5.4 Changes

[Wildberry]

but jesus H christ rogues and dks get buffs out the ass?

Rogues, I don't really see needing those buffs. However, to be fair, DK's are getting buffed because, Unholy's taking a hit with the RPPM Change, and Frost just sucks overall, I really don't think they're getting "buffs out the ass"

[CollisionTD]

Arms Rotation on PTR w/ 2 piece and crit > haste > mastery stat priority...

CS-MS-SLAM-SLAM-SLAM-SLAM-CS-SLAM-SLAM-MS-SLAM-SLAM-CS-SLAM-SLAM-SLAM-MS-SLAM-SLAM-SLAM........

There are points in the rotation where it feels optimal to push back MS because it's just impossible to get rid of all the rage. Heroic strike's rage efficiency is so bad that it's better to rage cap and hit slam on your next gcd. It felt decent with the 30 rage slam, I could throw in a couple of overpowers every once in a while, but now... nope. The only reason people are going to play Arms next tier is because the aoe damage will likely be second to none, and by a significant margin. The AoE-rotation isn't exactly rocket science either, just macro sweeping strikes into slam and apply face to keyboard with CS/Slam/thunderclap.

I wouldn't care if it beat the pants off fury, Arms is likely one of the only specs in the game where having too many procs makes you frustrated.

And this is how 8 target aoe is looking at the moment.

http://gyazo.com/5802a8f0dd664d35d80db629e5dce789

and 16 target
http://gyazo.com/2c9fbfbfcc94c8063e530255e4a8c88a
:edit:
Forgot to re-enable deep wounds not applying unless the dot falls off or if attack power is greater than the previous refresh, it's actually 1.54 million.

And a footnote: This is 8-16 targets with 100% uptime, no mechanics, etc. However, it's freaking impressive that any spec in the game can sustain 1.5 mil dps doing anything. Fury isn't exactly a slacker in the aoe department, and it nearly gets doubled up by arms.

[Crisius]

Seems arms still isn't all that good for single-target DPS though. Doing some dummy tests yesterday evening, over the course of 5 10 minute tests, I was sustaining 210k dps as arms, and 225-230k dps as fury. Still, gonna be nice to have some extreme utility again, for those fights with aoe. Assuming they don't nerf it, which they probably will.

/edit: On a sidenote, I was sustaining ~380k DPS keeping up deep wounds on three targets while cleaving two, and ~450k dps on four targets while cleaving two. Deep wounds maximum tick at around 220k. I'm getting the feeling this is where the nerf-bat will hit.

[micromanftw]

With slam pretty much taking over with the flooded amount of sudden death procs and rage, maybe Blizzard should make colossus smash generate 1 stack of Tfb and allow slam to consume Tfb stacks while the effect (CS) is up. This could possibly solve the extra rage issue, and the fact Tfb stacks seem utterly pointless in 5.4.

[Tecnice]

Rogues, I don't really see needing those buffs. However, to be fair, DK's are getting buffed because, Unholy's taking a hit with the RPPM Change, and Frost just sucks overall, I really don't think they're getting "buffs out the ass"

Rogues are taking a large hit from this change as well..

[Oliria]

Seems arms still isn't all that good for single-target DPS though. Doing some dummy tests yesterday evening, over the course of 5 10 minute tests, I was sustaining 210k dps as arms, and 225-230k dps as fury. Still, gonna be nice to have some extreme utility again, for those fights with aoe. Assuming they don't nerf it, which they probably will.

/edit: On a sidenote, I was sustaining ~380k DPS keeping up deep wounds on three targets while cleaving two, and ~450k dps on four targets while cleaving two. Deep wounds maximum tick at around 220k. I'm getting the feeling this is where the nerf-bat will hit.

If we go live with current PTR build for warriors, you probably want to have both specs. Arms will be vastly superior on AOE and cleave fights (Fallen protectors, Sha, Galakras, Dark shamans, Nazgrim, Spoils and Garosh) while a fury spec will be better for the remaining fights. Since both Arms and Fury have crit as the highest secondary stat you don't have to regem. You do however have to reforge between fights. If that is too much of a hassle, going either TG or Arms full time might be something to consider. It's hard to conclude too much from PTR testing due to the scaling, but Arms doesn't seem to be way below fury for single target. Personally I think I will try to get my hands on one 2H'er for arms, and then snatch up 1H'ers for SMF (If DKs are still going to be Unholy nobody but warriors want Strenght 1H'ers anyway).

But as Collision has pointed out, the arms rotation is borderline stupid. With the current build you almost completly ignore the main mechanics of arms (Tfb and OP).

[Trubo]

Rogues are taking a large hit from this change as well..

Yeah, instead of being the gods of melee currently in 5.3 without having to stack Haste or other RPPM cheesing mechanics (such as DK presences and Runic Corruption) they'd still be outperforming Unholy's 5.3's numbers in 5.4 even without Rogue 5.4 buffs.

[baconjesus]

How is fury holding up? Has anyone been able to compare numbers single target to other classes?

I can't help but to feel like Fury needs to damage distributed through BT/RB/WS buffs.

Would it be worthwhile since we're seeing upwards of 90%+ enrage uptime to just buff our Mastery a little bit to increase overall damage? I suspect though that would lead to mastery heavy builds and pvp burst causing issues? We're already leaning towards mastery after crit in next patch though, correct?

The deepwounds buff wasn't enough to bring our numbers up comparable single target to say Assassination rogues was it?

If Arms single target is viable, won't most people just stay Arms and not have to reforge between each boss? By viable, I mean within at least 5% difference in DPS.

[Deleted]

How is fury holding up? Has anyone been able to compare numbers single target to other classes?

I can't help but to feel like Fury needs to damage distributed through BT/RB/WS buffs.

Would it be worthwhile since we're seeing upwards of 90%+ enrage uptime to just buff our Mastery a little bit to increase overall damage? I suspect though that would lead to mastery heavy builds and pvp burst causing issues? We're already leaning towards mastery after crit in next patch though, correct?

The deepwounds buff wasn't enough to bring our numbers up comparable single target to say Assassination rogues was it?

If Arms single target is viable, won't most people just stay Arms and not have to reforge between each boss? By viable, I mean within at least 5% difference in DPS.

Apparently Fury is pretty good once it gets in BiS.

[CollisionTD]

Fury single target and AoE are both in pretty good spots. The culprit is arms AoE damage. I'd be ok with Arms having long-duration aoe advantages over fury, but that type of gap is just ridiculous.

[baconjesus]

Fury single target and AoE are both in pretty good spots. The culprit is arms AoE damage. I'd be ok with Arms having long-duration aoe advantages over fury, but that type of gap is just ridiculous.

What about Arms AoE compared to other classes over all? I saw the 8 target/16 target simc results you posted, but do the other classes have updated/working profiles compared to Arms? If so, that is a dramatic increase, but sans those updated profiles, are there any other benchmarks?

I noticed Warlock AoE was up there in both results, is that a tweaked profile or just a result of how their AoE?


Also, does it look like we're going to be using double Amp trinkets?

[cFortyfive]

How is fury holding up? Has anyone been able to compare numbers single target to other classes?

Not really in a meaningful way. Problem is mostly itemlvl downscaling and well ptr being ptr. Didn't look like you'd be ahead of the pack though.

What about Arms AoE compared to other classes over all?

From what I tested on actual encounters it looked like at the very least ele and wls are still pretty comparable. Arcane also looked very strong despite our mages sucking at playing it.

[Hand Banana]

Rogues, I don't really see needing those buffs. However, to be fair, DK's are getting buffed because, Unholy's taking a hit with the RPPM Change, and Frost just sucks overall, I really don't think they're getting "buffs out the ass"

That was mostly from a pvp perspective. Either dks or rogues are essentially our direct arena comp competition with the comps that work for warriors (lock/melee/healer, mage/melee/healer, spriest/melee/healer, ele/melee/healer, hunter/melee/healer, and double melee's ofc). If warriors are weak they are replaceable by either a rogue or a dk or a feral in pretty much every viable comp they have, so dks and rogues who are fairly weak as well, are both getting arguably bigger buffs which serves to further limit warriors in pvp. If we could get a god damn change to overpower we would be fine though.

[CollisionTD]

What about Arms AoE compared to other classes over all? I saw the 8 target/16 target simc results you posted, but do the other classes have updated/working profiles compared to Arms? If so, that is a dramatic increase, but sans those updated profiles, are there any other benchmarks?

I noticed Warlock AoE was up there in both results, is that a tweaked profile or just a result of how their AoE?


Also, does it look like we're going to be using double Amp trinkets?

They all have working profiles, some of the ones near the bottom aren't quite as optimized. I removed the results for those who have no aoe profiles atm. I've done a lot of testing with Arms AoE/Cleave, and so far on every encounter that has moderate/heavy amounts of 2+ targets to hit at all times, only demo locks and elemental can get close to how much damage arms puts out, but they're still 10-20% behind.

[Darkfriend]

Fury single target and AoE are both in pretty good spots. The culprit is arms AoE damage. I'd be ok with Arms having long-duration aoe advantages over fury, but that type of gap is just ridiculous.

I disagree. Make Warriors the OP AoE Spec for once, even if only a tier. Although I'd rather it was fury

[Boneyards]

Arms Rotation on PTR w/ 2 piece and crit > haste > mastery stat priority...

CS-MS-SLAM-SLAM-SLAM-SLAM-CS-SLAM-SLAM-MS-SLAM-SLAM-CS-SLAM-SLAM-SLAM-MS-SLAM-SLAM-SLAM........

There are points in the rotation where it feels optimal to push back MS because it's just impossible to get rid of all the rage. Heroic strike's rage efficiency is so bad that it's better to rage cap and hit slam on your next gcd. It felt decent with the 30 rage slam, I could throw in a couple of overpowers every once in a while, but now... nope. The only reason people are going to play Arms next tier is because the aoe damage will likely be second to none, and by a significant margin. The AoE-rotation isn't exactly rocket science either, just macro sweeping strikes into slam and apply face to keyboard with CS/Slam/thunderclap.

I wouldn't care if it beat the pants off fury, Arms is likely one of the only specs in the game where having too many procs makes you frustrated.

And a footnote: This is 8-16 targets with 100% uptime, no mechanics, etc. However, it's freaking impressive that any spec in the game can sustain 1.5 mil dps doing anything. Fury isn't exactly a slacker in the aoe department, and it nearly gets doubled up by arms.

Have you gotten a chance to check it out since they retuned it today? Curious as to what the 30% reduction will change.

[Deleted]

I dont think they retuned Slam after the nerf to 25rage cost etc. They should just up the OPs damage to where it makes more DPR than Slam like now in live. And buff Heroic Strike a bit so it wouldnt feel like slapping a costly tuna at the boss.

Then after this tune somethings if we go about doing too much dps..

I think if we go back to using OP and have 4 piece, well only use Slam in Recklessness.

[Opeth69]

I think from having done all the ptr testing on heroic (and cleared pretty much all except paragons) that arms will have a spot next tier.

1: Immerseus: Pretty close, on heroic you get a lot of small adds spawn that don't technically need to be burnt down asap so arms could jsut keep deepwounds up, but if your raid zergs them then fury would be better I guess. Also the constant execute phases towards the end might be nice for arms CS resetting constantly and deepwounds ticks during add phases too. Verdict - strat dependant so either way

2: Fallen Protectors: I'd say arms but it depends on how your guild tanks them as stacking them up for cleave can be risky and dangerous, also cleaving isn't necessarily the best for the fight as you want controlled single target. Verdict - arms if they can be cleaved

3: Norushen: Arms again due to being able to cleave boss/large adds and keep deepwounds on boss/adds when you go down for test phase. Verdict - arms

4: Sha of Pride: Id say arms, reflection adds don't need to be zerged so tanks will probably aoe them down and TC/deepwounds can help a lot, also large adds can be cleaved whilst on boss which is nice, but again depends on strat. verdict - arms but strat dependant

5: Galakras: arms all the way, pretty much continuous cleave/aoe throughout the fight, plus you can put tc/deepwounds on everything before you go up towers if needed. Verdict - arms all the way!

6: Iron Juggernaut: Id say fury here,mainly due to massive damage taken siege mode phases which are nice for extra HS spam, but arms will be decent for knockbacks as you'll have a more powerful bleed ticking away. Verdict - Fury

7: Dark Shaman:On normal easily arms as they can be stacked and cleaved, but on heroic that will very likely not be possible so I'd imagine fury but its close. Arms could potentially tc the small adds but its unlikely, also arms will have a decent opener as they can be stacked up for a short while at the start. Verdict - Fury if they can't be stacked up

8: Nazgrim: Pretty close, opening adds are irrelevant other than padding but if later adds are stacked/cleavable then arms will be better plus you will have a more powerful dot on boss whilst hitting on adds. Verdict - arms but only just

9: Malkorok: Arms could be good here due to small cleavable adds constantly but fury does have the advantage on boss damage and masses of HS spam during bloodrage is nice. Verdict - close but edging towards fury

10: Spoils: Either really here, lots of adds but rarely stacked up enough so could go either way, burst aoe is also nice and most of the larger packs die fast which may favor fury more. Verdict - close again but Id say arms

11: Thok: This ones close, but Id actually say arms mainly due to how much time is spent running away/waiting being able to keep more powerful deepwounds ticking is nice, but the frost phase does favor fury's burst aoe but I think whether you get dispelled or not and how often you're frozen will have a bigger impact. Having said that there's a lot of raid damage taken which is always nice for more HS spam and less rage conservation for fury. Verdict - if kite phases last ages arms, otherwise fury

12: Siegecrafter: Pretty miserable melee fight on heroic, not sure how final version will look as on ptr it was retardedly overtuned in parts on heroic, arms would be good on the main platform if adds can be stacked up for cleaving but the burst needed on the conveyor belt might favor fury so depends on your role. Verdict - If you on conveyor duty fury, otherwise arms

13: Paragons: Fury will be better on the main target, arms better at cleaving but the fight is pretty appauling for melee on heroic so good luck getting a spot to begin with! Verdict - either are viable but both are terrible as there melee

14: Garrosh: No heroic testing as of yet but fury will likely be better as the early phase adds are jsut padding and nothing else and the rest of the fight is pretty much single target and fury is better inside the portal rooms, however on heroic there might be more adds that require cleaving, also you can keep thunderclap deepwounds on the weapons which is nice for arms at least. Verdict - Fury but will have to see heroic changes

[CollisionTD]

I dont think they retuned Slam after the nerf to 25rage cost etc. They should just up the OPs damage to where it makes more DPR than Slam like now in live. And buff Heroic Strike a bit so it wouldnt feel like slapping a costly tuna at the boss.

Then after this tune somethings if we go about doing too much dps..

I think if we go back to using OP and have 4 piece, well only use Slam in Recklessness.

Slams DPR is lower than overpower even inside of cs, its just that our rage income has gotten to the point where using overpower just means that we will either rage cap or use heroic strike. Its better to take the slight rage inefficiency of slam vs op, rather than eating heroic strikes.

Its just like fury during execute, we waste some rb charges to ensure that we don't use heroic strike, even though rb is more efficient than execute.

[Snuglz]

Slams DPR is lower than overpower even inside of cs, its just that our rage income has gotten to the point where using overpower just means that we will either rage cap or use heroic strike. Its better to take the slight rage inefficiency of slam vs op, rather than eating heroic strikes.

Its just like fury during execute, we waste some rb charges to ensure that we don't use heroic strike, even though rb is more efficient than execute.

Currently with the Slam additional nerf where are we at as far as arms vs. fury