[Feral] 5.4 - Dream of Cenarius

[Tarazet]

I have a feeling that stats will get to the point in 5.4 where HotW would be better anyway. The more Agility we have, the more getting an extra 6% of it benefits us. It was so-so to begin with when BiS was 503, but now it's 549 and will go higher again in 5.4.

I'll admit it: I had trouble getting DoC to benefit Rip. Predatory Swiftness would fall off before I got enough Combo Points. I'm probably part of the problem.

[Whitepaw]

I'll admit it: I had trouble getting DoC to benefit Rip. Predatory Swiftness would fall off before I got enough Combo Points. I'm probably part of the problem.

1. When you are close to using a finisher, you just have to pool some energy.
2. Then, you use the finisher and fire off combo-building abilities like crazy! Mangle is actually ok, Rake is best if your Rune of Re-origination trinket is up (with Mastery buff, ofc).
3. When you have 1-2 sec left of PS, you hit your Healing Touch. At this point, you should have at least 4 combo points. Now, you have 2 x DoC charges.
4. If TF is up, you use that now.
5. You use 1 x DoC-charge on Rake. You now have 5 x combo-points.
6. You use the 2nd DoC-charge on Rip. This again procs PS.
7. You cast HT right away and get 2 x DoC-charge.
8. You use the first DoC-charge on a Thrash.
9. Then you look at your Rake. If you have a new proc up, that would make your next Rake better than the one you applied a few sec ago, you re-apply Rake. If not, you fire off Shred or Mangle.

The first point is extremely important. If you are low on energy, you will never make it. Also, download and install droodfocus from curse.

[aggixx]

I have a feeling that stats will get to the point in 5.4 where HotW would be better anyway. The more Agility we have, the more getting an extra 6% of it benefits us. It was so-so to begin with when BiS was 503, but now it's 549 and will go higher again in 5.4.

I'll admit it: I had trouble getting DoC to benefit Rip. Predatory Swiftness would fall off before I got enough Combo Points. I'm probably part of the problem.

Not even close, if anything live DoC would pull even further away from HotW next tier.

[Perceptor23]

Blizzard don't really like mandatory talents though and Dream of Cenarius was pretty close to mandatory, i.e the highest DPS choice. Also one thing i did not like about it meant that you couldn't really use those procs to actually heal yourself when you needed it, granted this is more of a 10 man issue than 25 but it will be nice to be able to actually have a heal when you need it not save it for the right time for optimal DPS. I know many will disagree.

[Whitepaw]

Blizzard don't really like mandatory talents though and Dream of Cenarius was pretty close to mandatory, i.e the highest DPS choice.

But that cause - effect chain is actually not true. A lot of raiding guilds chose HotW to gain Tranq as a healing CD. So we need to nerf that so HotW doesn't feel mandatory?

Also, the gap between DoC and HotW is rather small - and demands perfect rotation. I bet that you will gain more dps from HotW on some of the fights.

Also one thing i did not like about it meant that you couldn't really use those procs to actually heal yourself when you needed it, granted this is more of a 10 man issue than 25 but it will be nice to be able to actually have a heal when you need it not save it for the right time for optimal DPS.

I agree, but this has nothing to do with DoC. This is because Predatory Swiftness only lasts 8 sec. If Blizzard prolonged it to 15 sec (like it was originally), it would be much better game design. Look at the enh shaman Maelstrom ability - it's up in 30 sec and can also be used to heal or CC (Hex).

In fact, instead of changing the Feral aspect of DoC, it would make sense to just prolong Predatory Swiftness to at least 15 sec, because:
1. It would be much more flexible as a heal in raids and in pvp.
2. The dps rotation would be less tight, so DoC would be better at lower gear lvls.
3. FB doesn't hit nearly as hard as before (it was nerfed so you couldn't do SR - Mangle/Shred to 5 combo-points - Cyclone - kill target with FB when Cyclone ran out).
4. It's a dispellable buff, so keeping it in pvp only gives the opposition a better window to dispel it.

It would also make it more in-line with similar enh shaman and ret paladin abilities.

[Deleted]

If I am not mistaken, the Simcraft simulations about HotW are/were not optimised with the RPPM trinkets?!
Either way DoC was not mandatory. It also had the downside of being even more prone to RNG than the traditional feral playstyle (thinking about trinketprocs here). One problem there was with DoC, was that a lot of new ferals were taking that talent, as sides like noxxic were saying it was the most dps, and then not expanding on that. I've seen a few ferals with that talent, who were not even using the healing touches, as well as ferals who would use them as soon as they had done a finisher.

[vlobben]

Increasing the duration of PS would likely lead to nerfing (pre-5.4) DoC, since it would make it alot easier to spend those charges on rip/rake than it currently is, making the most potent talent choice even more better.

[Deleted]

i was looking forward to rerolling feral but if this goes live i guess i'll stick with the good old dk,this change takes most of the fun out of playing feral for me

[Senathor]

3 cheers for lowering skill ceiling and lowering the reward. They also seem to have made nature's swiftness resto only just to make the talent even worse...

why blizz?, whyyy?

Becuase ferals have an NS proc every 20 seconds anyway?

[aggixx]

If I am not mistaken, the Simcraft simulations about HotW are/were not optimised with the RPPM trinkets?!

Eh, not so much. Haste is good for HotW but you can't trade all your mastery for it anyway so the itemization isn't all that different.

Increasing the duration of PS would likely lead to nerfing (pre-5.4) DoC, since it would make it alot easier to spend those charges on rip/rake than it currently is, making the most potent talent choice even more better.

Not really, DoC practically plays itself in good gear right now. Increasing the duration of PS would be a much bigger buff for people with poor gear than anything.

[Sylar Hao]

So you don't like feral, not just DoC, that's what you're saying.

No sir, that's not what I'm saying, please, refuse to do that. My very first character is my main and has always been a feral. I hated how extremely clunky felt the rotation back in ICC, even if I always was top on my guild back then. I really liked the simpler rotation in Cataclysm because it allowed me (us) to relax a bit and enjoy the fights/encounters/pvp etc.

So you don't like DoC. That means you are using HotW. So this change means nothing to you because you will still be using HotW (like every other feral will). So why do you care?

I care because I want to have all 3 viable AND FUN options not just 1 and a half, and no, I'm using NV with very very good results.

[Skadovsk]

No sir, that's not what I'm saying, please, refuse to do that. My very first character is my main and has always been a feral. I hated how extremely clunky felt the rotation back in ICC, even if I always was top on my guild back then. I really liked the simpler rotation in Cataclysm because it allowed me (us) to relax a bit and enjoy the fights/encounters/pvp etc.


I care because I want to have all 3 viable AND FUN options not just 1 and a half, and no, I'm using NV with very very good results.

Again you're saying you don't like feral, I wouldn't even call cata version feral.
If you really just want to relax and enjoy the view while hitting 2 keys over and over without tracking anything you're playing the wrong class.

Nerfing to DoC doesn't bring NV closer to anything but trash.
Feral NV is really shitty for burst, sustained damage and healing, I don't know what kind of good results you could be having, better yet show us your good NV results.
If this nerf goes through in its current PTR state it will just be HotW or respec.

[Raugnaut]

Has anyone made a thread on the WoW forums about the Feral DoC nerf, and preventing it from going live?

[aggixx]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9280218700

[Deleted]

Eh, not so much. Haste is good for HotW but you can't trade all your mastery for it anyway so the itemization isn't all that different.

I ment utilizing trinketprocs and stuff like that.

[aggixx]

I ment utilizing trinketprocs and stuff like that.

Ah, in terms of action list, yes it was a little bit behind what it could be. As of a couple days ago I consolidated the lists a bit and the sims should be considered fairly accurate for both talents for all PTR simulations.