Goodbye Mannoroth's Fury. It was a real pleasure.

[kappa]

Instead of the 40+ pages of the KJC qq on the official forums, I wish more emphasis could be put on the MF nerf. This is seriously making me sad to play Destro. I'm not going to debate if this was a fair nerf or not but in full heroic gear, I was nearly unstoppable with MF in non raids. I could literally pull as many mobs as I could, sometimes up to 30+ mobs; together with ember tap+infinite embers, I could destroy everything in my path without dying. I've never tried it but I can probably easily solo 5man heroics as well. It is so much fun!

In its upcoming state, the MF talent is still there but I can't believe it'll only last 15 secs on a 1.5min CD AND it's another button I have to push before I can aoe. I'm cringing at having to MF>FNB>AOE for every pack of mob ugh.

Side note: I'm actually fine with the KJC nerf but I'm legit bummed with the MF one.

[Grab]

Please not nerf MF, I love MF

[Aleksej89]

Pretty much no class in WoW has AoE that affects over 10yards from the impact point - only rare spells like Starfall have greater AoE, and even then it is usually a "smart aoe" that directly attacks targets you are in combat with.

I never understood why MF even exists, no encounter where AoE was meant to be used requires more than the usual 10yard AoE.
Aside from looking cool and overpulling various mobs MF never had a definite purpose, aside from MAYBE affecting that one-out-of-15 mobs that stubbornly won't approach the tank in an AoE situation.

KCJ can be useful in the 5.4 cooldown version, but MF is just not worth taking.
Better remove the gimmick and replace it with an actually useful talent that can benefit us on at least a majority of bosses...

[Verain]

No, the MF tears were Rogue/Feral based. Like they have any justification to cry about anything.

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-0-0.html

Locks are more represented than rogues. Obviously more than ferals, but that's a harder value to discern. So yes, just as if one of the rogue 90 talents was "30% damage reduction from just warlocks", it would be pretty similar, and rogues are in an excellent place to complain about this.

I'm VERY glad to see this nerfed. I'm fucking SICK of this bullshit talent removing stealth jousting, the value of metastealth moves, stealth positioning, distract, etc. It has contributed to an arms race with OP bullshit like cloak and dagger (and to a degree, subterfuge) being "needed" and thought appropriate, and made it such that cool moves like shadow walk do nothing. It has also contributed to the ludicrous play that has defined and defiled MoP arenas (not a warlock specific issue by any means, and locks have been nowhere near the biggest problem, but it's just part of the dogpile).



HOWEVER- I'm pretty sure this isn't why it's being nerfed, and I'm actually not convinced that this nerf (or the KJC nerf) will see it live without being at least partially rebuffed. Here's my reasoning:

1)- If they wanted to help stealth, they would have changed this when they changed Halo. We've had two seasons where the only reasons rogues open on you is that stealth either doesn't break from damage, or rogues teleport, and mostly both. Given that the entire tier has powerful use in pvp, this wouldn't have been out of place at all, to put "doesn't break stealthed targets" just as they did for Halo.

2)- They announced a bunch of reasoning behind the KJC nerf, and GC tweeted about it. If they JUST nerf KJC down to spirit walker's grace, then Mannoroth's becomes a pretty damned mandatory talent, mostly, and they still want you to change it.

3)- I don't think it will go live exactly as stated for the reasons mostly offered in this thread: this really reduces the fun of warlocks, with very little gain in terms of solid gameplay.

4)- I don't think it will go live because a small bonus to aoe on a large cooldown is honestly generally silly, and is a button that most players aren't going to mess with. Even on a heavy aoe fight, you would probably be better off with KJC, versus having a small window where your aoe hits slightly larger. In other words, the proposed version of this spell is super dumb and won't go live like that.

[De Lupe]

But...but....my supernova Immolation Aura. I want to keep it...

T_T

[superdooper]

So, this may up being a long post and I apologize in advance. I may also post it to the 4.4 discussion thread.


Every time I tell people how completely drastic these changes are, and how they will completely kill Warlocks if the changes go through I get a scoff and a "Psh. You guys need the nerf. KjC is OP." The things that people forget though is how Warlocks are completely and utterly built around casting fillers, and that the vast majority of our damage comes as a consequence of these fillers. Embers for Destro, Fury for Demo, DoT damage for Affliction.

For other classes such as SPriests, their damage comes primarily from DP, which is cast by generating orbs by casting MB on CD. That said, it's a CD. Their damage doesn't come as a result of their "filler", it comes as a result of their secondary resource generators. (Which is why in my guide I refer to "Ember Generators" and "Ember Consumers" and not the normal nomenclature of "filler"). Because our damage comes from our "fillers" and is reliant upon them, losing the ability to cast these fillers means we will not only do no damage while moving, but we will also do much lower damage after movement has stopped.


This affects the 3 specs differently. I'd put the order of impact (from least impacted ("best" if you will), to most impacted ("worst")):
1. Demo
2. Destro
3. Affliction


Demo:
Arguably the least impacted by these changes, all due to a spammable ToC in Meta. Being able to plan periods of movement with Demon form timings allows a great amount of flexibility for Demo. While the changes will for sure nerf Demo, it won't be as bad as Destro/Affliction.


Destro:
I'd rate Destro middle of the pack compared to Demo/Aff. Since they've stated they're removing RoF from the single target rotation in 5.4, Destro now effectively has 2 abilities to use while moving: Fel Flame and Conflag.

Conflag allows at most 2 GCDs worth of movement every 24 seconds. Fel Flame has the cost of not only mana, but also removing any Crit Chance snapshotted on Immo. (This will be a BIG-AS-FUCK deal with next tier's set bonuses giving us Crit chance in all cases).

Removing RoF removes all Destro mobility. Even without the MF change, Destro would be in a bad spot simple due to the KjC change.

Compounding onto this problem is the MF change, which removes all ability for Destro to gain extra embers to gain back some of the damage lost by moving, in situations where both the talent would allow you to hit mobs otherwise unhittable, and that the old talent would allow you that the CD version wouldn't. (EG: Horridon)


Affliction:
I don't really even need to talk about Affliction. Pretty much all of Affliction's damage comes directly from channeling. Not being able to move while channeling guts the spec and will easily be the worst off with the KjC change.



The only way I was able to convince my raid leader that these were changes that would gut Warlocks was by (and I was NOT joking) telling him I'd play my SPriest in 5.4 because Warlocks would do no damage in actual raid situations.

---------- Post added 2013-06-12 at 04:39 PM ----------



Won't happen for Destro unless the mechanics change at a core level. Buffing our spells means buffing our burst in PvP, which is something they've shown with CB nerfs (over and over again) they don't want to have happen.

Thanks for the reply - great write-up! So plans for 5.4 if all changes remain as they are today? Demo? or reroll?

[Brusalk]

Thanks for the reply - great write-up! So plans for 5.4 if all changes remain as they are today? Demo? or reroll?

Depends on the balancing pass they do.

As it stands right now I'd be hardpressed to stay Warlock when I have a viable SPriest alt.

*EDIT*

I'd just like to make it clear that I'm not saying it's the end of the world for warlocks if the changes go through.

I'm in a (semi)-hardcore HC progression guild, and if my SPriest alt will do more damage than my Warlock, then I need to be on my SPriest, regardless of my personal feelings.

[Jessicka]

Depends on the balancing pass they do.

As it stands right now I'd be hardpressed to stay Warlock when I have a viable SPriest alt.

Your concerns about warlock mobility are tempting you to go SPriest. The sky really must be falling.

[Deleted]

No, it's not. It is much more important to have three equal talents to choose from than it is to have a single useful, fun talent. Since AV was already crap and KJC gets nerfed to the ground, it became necessary to break MF too. Then all the talents are pretty much equal, and Blizzard is happy.

You mean equally crap in that there's barely any point in any of them? I would prefer if they just removed all three talents and came up with something else.

[lockedout]

My only reason concern is with all these talents going 'active' is finding space on my actionbars

Just more buttons for no reason.
They made FNB toggle which is awesome and then want to do this.
These spells don't need a cd in PVE.
Blizzard needs to just make certain spells act differently in PVP or just make every class a PvP tree.

[Brusalk]

Your concerns about warlock mobility are tempting you to go SPriest. The sky really must be falling.

The lack of warlock mobility (as things currently are) on the PTR will hurt way more than the lack of mobility SPriests already have, as I've outlined in my post a few pages back.

It's not just a matter of doing no damage while moving, but also the cost associated after movement has finished.

[Jessicka]

The lack of warlock mobility (as things currently are) on the PTR will hurt way more than the lack of mobility SPriests already have, as I've outlined in my post a few pages back.

It's not just a matter of doing no damage while moving, but also the cost associated after movement has finished.

Affliction was fine 5.0-5.1 before KJC was buffed, I really don't think it's quite as bad as you're convincing yourself. Much will depend on the encounters in SoO itself which we know nothing about of course, but I think you're prophecies of doom are somewhat overstated.

---------- Post added 2013-06-13 at 02:45 PM ----------

You mean equally crap in that there's barely any point in any of them? I would prefer if they just removed all three talents and came up with something else.

I think that was the pretty unanimous opinion of these forums during Beta.

[Grizelda]

Affliction was fine before KJC was buffed? There were several more changes (nerfs) that have been made to aff since then.

It wasn't buffed in a vacuum.

[Polarthief]

As a Mage who has been extremely jealous of KJC (because Arcane/Frost w/o procs SUCKS at mobile DPS) and am glad it's getting nerfed (even if they change it again, but regardless, glad it's been nerfed), I am extremely saddened to see MF get nerfed. There was literally no point to do so.


(Seriously though, to those bitching about KJC, you know by the time 5.4 comes live, it won't be the same. It was TOO good.

[announced]

i miss mannoroths fury.. fucking big ass firestorm tearing up the place.. every dungeon destroying meters on adds. hopefully blizz reverts these shit changes or increases the base radius of our aoes.

[Grizelda]

Yes, God forbid the game should actually be good.

[Deleted]

I am also pretty much pist about this. They are killing of 2 great taltens. Now we will get some stupid useless only for 10-15 secounds ever 1.5 minte. So warlock will get more stupid and useless abilitys. Was the great feeling on my warlock to be able to cast while running, or makeing giant aoe, but no. good bye warlock, i reroll hunter

[Brusalk]

Affliction was fine 5.0-5.1 before KJC was buffed, I really don't think it's quite as bad as you're convincing yourself. Much will depend on the encounters in SoO itself which we know nothing about of course, but I think you're prophecies of doom are somewhat overstated.

---------- Post added 2013-06-13 at 02:45 PM ----------


I think that was the pretty unanimous opinion of these forums during Beta.

There was a few factors that have changed between then and now that have a huge impact on Affliction's reliance on channeling:

1. Back pre-ToT RPPM didn't exist. Trinkets were all ICDs and one knew when they would have a big buff coming.
2. DoTs were rarely buffed for extended periods of time. There was substantial portions of a fight were you had base-powered DoTs and Fel Flame wouldn't make them lose power. Compared to now with Meta + Trinkets + Int Procs it just isn't the case any more.
3. The relative power of DoTs was lower back then compared to other sources for Affliction. iLevels were lower, pets did more of our overall damage compared to now. Losing buffed DoTs wasn't as big a deal. (Not that it wasn't one)
4. Affliction's DoTs have received nerfs to base damage done and scaling, forcing a greater reliance on Channeling for damage, and hence the immense (and deserved) popularity of KjC for Affliction.

and last but most importantly:

5. The relative difference in power of buffed DoTs compared to unbuffed DoTs was substantially lower back then. Losing buffed DoTs wasn't as big a drop in % power as compared to now.

It all works out to make Fel Flame a significant loss for Affliction now compared to back pre-ToT.



Now, I primarily play Destro as I'm sure you all know by now. I was also Destro for T14. The only fight I didn't use KjC on back then as Destro was Sha because it was super important to have MF in the last phase. Destro is also hugely impacted by these changes. I don't think it's as huge a loss as Affliction when played correctly, however they are very close.

[Kheldin]

I feel with you! Was indeed alot of fun to set a whole area in flames... will definately miss that lvl90 talent the most!

[Jessicka]

Affliction was fine before KJC was buffed? There were several more changes (nerfs) that have been made to aff since then.

It wasn't buffed in a vacuum.

No, you're right, they nerfed Sacrifice so players are more likely to be using pets, meaning loss from lower MG uptime has a lower impact...