Can we have casual gear progression content that isn't a raid?

[VanishO2]

There are many things to do in the game other than gear progression. Like brawler's guild. They're about having fun, beating stuff, etc.

With that said, gear wise, there will always be a dead end. Sorry.

Progressing and "increase in power" rewards go together. Sure there are a few things here and there that could be better, but overall, everything is there and if you don't want to progress to the "next level", your progression ends there.

If you did all the LFR, got everything you wanted from there and has no interest in going for normals, then, it's over until 5.4. Nothing else on the game should provide you with something on par with normal+ stuff, unless it's on the same dificulty level.

Herioc dungeons can't be used for that anymore since ppl demanded that it should be only for farming, gearing for 1st tier or catch up mechanics for alts/new players. And since they're very serious about not letting a multi player game become a single player (and a single player content to be on the same level of dificulty of a normal raid, would be something really hard to account for the fact that you don't have other players making mistakes. Probably not everyone would be able to beat it), it's really over.

[Kelimbror]

All I read is "I don't want to do the work that is required to get the stuff I want. Why can't I grow epics on my farm?"

You mean, all you knee jerked into your response without actually reading anything? Ok. Just so we're on the same page. Also, here's your 3rd place medal for the same argument on one page. You just missed out on being the first person (on this page) by 2 posts. I've lost count how many people have said this over the life of this thread.

Logic null/void.

[VanishO2]

489 gear is like grays in comparison to submediocre gear nowadays. You can't call something as alternative progression if it's rewards are infinitely worse than raid-based progression, you can call it as catching up for raids, and nothing more.

Solo challenges count, Brawler's guild counts (it is just one-sided, as to progress in it, you need to progress outside it). Though I agree, we could have more variety in activities, like some endless dungeon/tower for 1-5 players, etc., and not things like pet battles, which have zero relevance to character.

489 isn't like gray. For it's dificult level, it's ok.

Why ppl want everything to be gear progression? Brawler's Guild is a solo challenge for fun (or even "prestige" since it's only about you against a set of challenges), it's something to do with the high ilvl gear you got other than showing in a capital city, rolfstomping low ilvl content like dailies, etc.

Pet Battles didn't remove extra dungeons, gear paths, etc. It's like saying the farm in halfhill, DMF, etc. denied everyone of extra progression and should never be in the game.

The way ppl wanted the game, there can never be challenge stuff outside of raiding, with gear progression. Take challenge modes for example. The day Blizzard decide to put gear drops (that would need to be based on timer, let's be honest, what is challenging on that other than beating the timer? Everything can be killed as usual if you take your time) on that, it will be over.

[Ferocity]

Oh and about those other MMO's... they don't hand out high lvl free gear as WoW does it or they have a 'pay to win' system. I think it is you who is short sighted here...

Shadows of Yserbius
Fates of Twinion
Ruins of Cawdor
Ultima Online
Ragnarok Online
Lineage

Should I continue with list of games, where character progress wasn't locked by heavy gates of raiding with BoP gear?

While I can understand that reading all 12 pages must be too hard, I can't understand shortsightedness of people, who don't see anything outside of WoW and it's clones. WoW, as raid-centric game only became famous because it was "casual version" of EQ. It doesn't mean that raid-centric part is what gave it success. And meanwhile there was no huge power discrepancy if you don't raid, now it is KZ-SWP difference in just one tier, with very cold-hearted raid system.

Once you will quit raiding scene, maybe you will see that game feels sterile, and the only time it's worth to play for most "casuals" is during new patch, to see new content and maybe get some "freebies", as you'd say.

---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 05:42 PM ----------

Why ppl want everything to be gear progression?

It doesn't have to be gear progression. It can be smth like same Paragon Levels or other kind of AA system. Pet battles and brawler's guild isn't progression of character. They don't affect character's combat capabilities, which defines character progression. Getting +50 Strength either from AA, from new piece of gear or from somewhere else is character progression. Getting new piece of gear for transmog purpose isn't. Pet battles are out of question entirely, as they don't even have anything in common with character.

[fangless]

You want better gear? Raid! Why else would you want to have the best rewards if you're not going to put them to good use? Best items should required the hardest path to acquire. Brawlers Guild is for prestige, not to gear. All dungeons matter, you just don't want to have to run them more than once to get the gear you like. Exploration is not a hard thing to do, so the rewards you get shouldn't be that great either.

All I read is "I don't want to do the work that is required to get the stuff I want. Why can't I grow epics on my farm?"

Oh and about those other MMO's... they don't hand out high lvl free gear as WoW does it or they have a 'pay to win' system. I think it is you who is short sighted here...

Sir, I raid plenty.

[Pua]

It seems we're talking about PVE, so that's what I'm going to talk about. As it relates to PVE, gear serves one purpose: to allow viability in increasingly difficult raid content.

Wrong.

Gear does not serve that one, singular purpose.

That's why this chain of thought has been debunked - it's because it starts on a false premise.

People want gear to look different, feel different and to progress their characters. They want to get stronger as an expansion moves on so that they can do old things quicker and new things more easily. New gear, new looks, new set bonuses to have fun with; these are all legitimate reasons to want more gear. Getting into raid content is merely one of them.

[judgementofantonidas]

All this talk of needing LFR because "possibly it allowed thousands of players to raid who otherwise would have just logged off...." why can't they just make some interesting things for players that is a gear progression path and nothing to do with raids?

People can't commit to set times, or want to deal with such environment... so create something for them unique instead of just taking existing raids and turning the slider to 1.


Stuff like Brawler's Guild, could have loot as you went along. More personal class quests. Dungeons that mattered. Adventurer style stuff that got you items if you explored a lot.


Why is the only solution raiding? There are a ton of MMO games out there now, just go steal some ideas from them. Seems so short sighted from a company that used to have great ideas.

There are literally TONS of things for non raid minded/skilled players to do outside of raid. This list is nearly endless.

pick flowers
dig in the dirt
kill things for profit
sell things to raiders

improve to the point where you are replying to barely masked complaints that others can attain what you cannot.

[Achtalon]

WoW needs Swtor style storytelling, with a giant story/class quest. That's the #1 thing I liked about that game, as well as my smuggler saying how great she was. The gameplay/control in TOR was what reminded me that Blizzard is still the best in the business in many ways. That's no reason to be complacent, however, which they seemed to be with SC2 (but have been waking up the last year and half or so). It's hard to say they've been complacent with WoW when MoP was unexpectedly good in spite of mistakes like removing the talent trees, but overall, it feels as though they've been less innovative since WotLK.

We've been doing the normal/heroic VP (previous badges) grind for 3 expansions now, with loot and legendaries all being somewhat predictable. Again, this is where MoP somewhat exceeded expectations with the Wrathion quest line. I can only hope they're saving all their best ideas for Titan, and yes, using them on WoW now would spoil Titan being as good as we all hope it is.

[RicardoZ]

People can't commit to set times, or want to deal with such environment... so create something for them unique instead of just taking existing raids and turning the slider to 1.


Stuff like Brawler's Guild, could have loot as you went along. More personal class quests. Dungeons that mattered. Adventurer style stuff that got you items if you explored a lot.


Why is the only solution raiding? There are a ton of MMO games out there now, just go steal some ideas from them. Seems so short sighted from a company that used to have great ideas.

This is probably one of the best posts I've ever read here. This pretty much sums up the entire reason I unsubbed.

The only thing that matters in the game now is "get gear get gear get gear raid raid raid get gear get gear get gear"...I'm not really "gear-motivated"...that might be why I have multiple toons with max archaeology

I just don't understand why gear has to be the reward for everything. So I broke my back raiding and now I get to kill mobs 3 seconds faster than I did beforehand. Gee...thanks...

I would prefer there to be more class-quests, cosmetic items that do cool stuff, quality of life solutions, getting to see cinematics/cutscenes, getting to progress into really epic and lore-heavy questlines, titles, mounts...all of these things are much more attractive rewards to me than just "better gear". Let the raiders and elitist theory-crafters worry about having the best gear, I don't care about it and when I get to max level I'm not going to stay subbed for two years chasing it around just to say I have it. Waste of time. Give me something with substance.

[Sierra85]

Finding a way to remove the time sink of raiding while still feeling like your character is progressing would be fun, however i do not know how you would implement a system that was "fair and balanced". I really like fangless's ideas posted above though.

[Holtzmann]

It seems we're talking about PVE, so that's what I'm going to talk about. As it relates to PVE, gear serves one purpose: to allow viability in increasingly difficult raid content.

It's really not debunkable. If you just login and do five mans and dailies, why do you need better gear than what is already available to you? You don't. You may want it, but you absolutely do not need it. The gear you have when you first hit 90 is sufficient. If you want it for transmog, you can wait until a handful of people can easily clear the content. If your complaint is that people who don't wish to raid don't have enough content, then why would you want to ruin it by tying it to necessary gear progression?

If a person only plays WoW to get more gear and only needs more gear because they play WoW, then what's the point? It would be solved by simply not playing. One would hope that a person plays a game by choice because they enjoy the game and not because they've been suckered into feeling like they're constantly falling behind. If you don't raid, you simply do not need more gear than you can get not raiding to access this game and so the pursuit of more gear is without purpose.

Wait, wait. What? "If you just login and do five mans and dailies, why do you need better gear than what is already available to you?" To make content easier and more enjoyable, and so I can take on greater challenges, that's why!

Gear is a means to allow you to do things you wouldn't be able to do before. My fresh level 90 Hunter could barely kill stuff in the Kor'kron areas in Northern Barrens when I started playing her again. After a couple LFR pieces and a new crossbow from a heroic Dungeon (which still doesn't even lick the boots of a LFR weapon), things got a whole lot more enjoyable. She feels more powerful now, and that is what progression is about. Hell, that's what any game with gear is about.

And besides, saying that better gear is only used for raiding is shortsighted at best. There's Brawler's Guild, there's soloing old raids for transmog, pets or just fun, there's simply being able to kill mobs a lot faster so you can farm drops (hello, dinosaur critters) or tank more things by yourself. Everything about PvE, except Pet Battles, is improved by better bear. Feeling more powerful and doing things faster/better is what progression should be about. Since in this game gear is what makes you more powerful, then yes we do need better gear as time goes on. Sure, leave the top gear for the people who put in top effort. I'm fine with that. But don't leave players eating dust because they don't do one element of PvE, specially when gear is relevant for all other aspects of PvE.

[judgementofantonidas]

They need things to take awhile, but right now there's really just one or two ways to get there. One of which is raiding, and most people don't actually do it because they enjoy it, they do it because that's how you get items.

Gonna key in on this particular part of your statement.

If I did not enjoy raiding, why after seven years of dealing with having to explain why the healer who did not dispell (x) on a reliable basis or the dps who normally pulls half of what another player in thier class and equivalent gear does, or the pally tank that is still gemming stam well into a haste build patch why they are not welcome in the next raid till they fix themselves, I am still raiding some times upwards of 5 nights a week seems confusing.

[fangless]

This is probably one of the best posts I've ever read here. This pretty much sums up the entire reason I unsubbed.

The only thing that matters in the game now is "get gear get gear get gear raid raid raid get gear get gear get gear"...I'm not really "gear-motivated"...that might be why I have multiple toons with max archaeology

I just don't understand why gear has to be the reward for everything. So I broke my back raiding and now I get to kill mobs 3 seconds faster than I did beforehand. Gee...thanks...

Thanks :P I've been playing this game since beta, and I've seen the landscape shift numerous times.

Us Veteran players will keep playing, and likely won't unsubscribe randomly between patches, so there's not much needed to keep us playing. What they need to address are the people who only subscribe after each new patch, and do so for weeks at a time or whatever.

LFR was a bandaid fix, but like I say, it's basically like giving your kid sugar for dinner. Sure he's happy, but it's not good for him in the intermediate long term, and definitely not for the long long term. These players need something that is more substantial and engaging, and still gives them a reason to play and be logged in.

A lot of newer players may think LFR is in a perfect place right now, but coming from someone that has been around for every style of play the Devs have gone through with the game, there's many flaws in the current cycle we're in now that aren't always so apparent.

Gonna key in on this particular part of your statement.

If I did not enjoy raiding, why after seven years of dealing with having to explain why the healer who did not dispell (x) on a reliable basis or the dps who normally pulls half of what another player in thier class and equivalent gear does, or the pally tank that is still gemming stam well into a haste build patch why they are not welcome in the next raid till they fix themselves, I am still raiding some times upwards of 5 nights a week seems confusing.

I am talking about LFR here, not normal raid experiences. Unless you're talking about doing LFR 5 nights a week. If so, well, I did say MOST players :P

[Adjusting]

Oh!!! That's not a bad idea. Often during my game play I thought of perfect times where a some kind of reward would of been very cool.

[Kelimbror]

There are literally TONS of things for non raid minded/skilled players to do outside of raid. This list is nearly endless.

pick flowers
dig in the dirt
kill things for profit
sell things to raiders

improve to the point where you are replying to barely masked complaints that others can attain what you cannot.

States that there are a nearly infinite amount of things for people to do outside of gear progression, lists only 4 things.

(and arguably 4 things that yield no progression or improvement for your character)

[Ronduwil]

If you just login and do five mans and dailies, why do you need better gear than what is already available to you?

For Brawler's guild. To farm nodes faster. To be able to finish 5 dailies in 25 minutes instead of spending an hour on them. But gear isn't even the primary concern. Let me describe the current situation with 5-mans in a way that you can understand.

Imagine that Blizzard decides that tuning high end raids is simply too much work and that they should instead focus their energies on five mans. So normal and heroic raids go away and you're left with one raid that's called a "Heroic Raid" but its difficulty level is comparable to today's LFR. Then they turn around and say, "You know what? Raids are really easy so they're just going to drop blue gear." How would you feel about that? Would my logging in and saying, "Why do you need epics when you're just doing Heroic Raids?" Does that help matters for you? Of course not, because the problem is not just the gear. It's the fact that Blizzard basically told you that they couldn't give a crap about the stuff that you used to enjoy in the game.

You don't. You may want it, but you absolutely do not need it.

Well, that's part of the problem. Scraping together 10 skilled players on my low pop server is too onerous an activity, so I am not going to raid. I'd be happy with challenging 5-mans that would award decent gear so that I could entice others to do them with me. As it is when you spam for challenge modes people just laugh at you because they drop transmog gear.

The gear you have when you first hit 90 is sufficient.

Fine. Well, then the time I spent levelling to 90 is sufficient. I'll remain unsubscribed. Enjoy your raid-only game.

If your complaint is that people who don't wish to raid don't have enough content, then why would you want to ruin it by tying it to necessary gear progression?

You seem to think that being handed gear is gear progression, but it isn't. Contrary to your belief, I don't mind having to put in time and effort to get my gear. It's just not feasible to do 10-man content on low pop servers. I don't mind the challenge, but this all-or-nothing approach is the pits. I don't understand what we're ruining by asking for 5-man content with a difficulty that's on par with raids that also rewards gear on par with raid gear. Kind of like troll heroics without the arbitrary deflation of ilevel.

If a person only plays WoW to get more gear and only needs more gear because they play WoW, then what's the point?

You tell me! I've seen many raiders argue that, "People only raid for gear so if you give gear to everyone for content like LFR no one will want to raid anymore." For what it's worth, I agree with the idea that people play for reasons other than gear. That having been said, it's not right to put in as much time and effort as a raider doing challenging content (like troll heroics) and to not receive gear rewards in proportion to that time and effort (like troll heroics and challenge modes).

It would be solved by simply not playing.

Then by your definition I have done my part to solve the problem. That doesn't change the fact that Blizzard is now missing out on my $180 annual fee.

One would hope that a person plays a game by choice because they enjoy the game and not because they've been suckered into feeling like they're constantly falling behind. If you don't raid, you simply do not need more gear than you can get not raiding to access this game and so the pursuit of more gear is without purpose.

Again, progression is more than gear. There is no 5-man progression, meaning that there is no challenging content that players can do in five man groups in exchange for gear rewards. Progression has two components, one of which is gear. You could argue that LFR is solo progression, but it really isn't because it lacks the challenge component to it. As many have pointed out, it's essentially a once-per-week slot machine in which you endure 45 minutes of trolling for a shot at subpar gear. That's what you don't seem to understand. This point that you keep beating to death is like responding to a drowning man who is shouting that he can't breathe, "Well, you're in the water and there is no air underwater so you don't need to breathe." You're not helping.

[Belisaurio]

Imagine that Blizzard decides that tuning high end raids is simply too much work and that they should instead focus their energies on five mans. So normal and heroic raids go away and you're left with one raid that's called a "Heroic Raid" but its difficulty level is comparable to today's LFR. Then they turn around and say, "You know what? Raids are really easy so they're just going to drop blue gear." How would you feel about that? Would my logging in and saying, "Why do you need epics when you're just doing Heroic Raids?" Does that help matters for you? Of course not, because it's not just the gear. It's the fact that Blizzard basically told you that they couldn't give a crap about the stuff that you used to enjoy in the game.

And what's the problem with that? If they change the "meta-game", then it's normal to change the steps that we need to do.
Green-->Blue--->Epic---Legendary are colored steps of equipment. So, they need to be clear in the direction that we should go. If "Heroic raiding" hasn't got the "equipment improve"s that we want for our char (blue gear), then we will turn to 5man to try to reach that (someones can do it faster, others need more time).

[judgementofantonidas]

I am talking about LFR here, not normal raid experiences. Unless you're talking about doing LFR 5 nights a week. If so, well, I did say MOST players :P

Oh. Thought you said raiding. Not LFR.

---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 11:45 AM ----------

States that there are a nearly infinite amount of things for people to do outside of gear progression, lists only 4 things.

(and arguably 4 things that yield no progression or improvement for your character)

gathering
crafting
farming
questing
dungeoning
reputation grinding
poke man
fishing
auctioning


progression denotes raiding..............

[Jtree]

And meanwhile there was no huge power discrepancy if you don't raid, now it is KZ-SWP difference in just one tier, with very cold-hearted raid system.

This is a very faulty argument. The numbers were so much smaller back then that a few iLevel points brought a relatively large gain in power. Today, you need those bigger numbers just to get a feeling of a small gain.

Kara gear topped at an iLevel of 125, while SWP was 164. That's an increase of 31%.

Throne of Thunder gear stretches from 502 in LFR to 541 in heroic. That's only an 8% increase. In fact, ToT heroic gear is only 14% better than what you get from MSV LFR, on par with the gap between Kara and Tier 5.

So we see here that the supposed gear gap between "hardcore" and "casual" gear is still within the norm of WoW's history.

[Ronduwil]

And what's the problem with that? If they change the "meta-game", then it's normal to change the steps that we need to do.
Green-->Blue--->Epic---Legendary are colored steps of equipment. So, they need to be clear in the direction that we should go. If "Heroic raiding" hasn't got the "equipment improve"s that we want for our char (blue gear), then we will turn to 5man to try to reach that (someones can do it faster, others need more time).

The problem is that raiders would cry about the lack of raiding content, not just the lack of gear.

---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 11:02 AM ----------

Troll heroics are not the same time and effort as raiding. They never were. Some BC heroics might have been comparable to parts of Kara. Probably the last time five man content was ever comparable to raiding.

My personal experience suggests otherwise. When I first joined a raiding guild I went into troll heroics with a group of people who had successfully cleared up through the first three bosses in FL the night before. We spent 3 hours wiping on Jin'do before they gave up. Keep in mind that I had been pugging Jin'do successfully for weeks in my crappy 353 gear at this point. Yet Jin'do was dropping 353 gear and the FL bosses dropped 378 gear. How was that fair?

---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 11:05 AM ----------

I don't see a problem in people quitting if they don't enjoy the game.

That's because you're not presenting the quarterly reports to Blizzard's investors. This is why Blizzard has a marketing department to decide what content to include and remove from the game. If they were to listen exclusively to hardcore raiders they'd be out of business in no time.