[Megathread] Dragon Age 3

[May90]

Not sure if you just have horrible friends or you just dont understand things.

If you read the Mistborn trilogy, the first book, you will understand what I mean. The thing is, I don't expect my friends to be perfect, and I will never criticize them for their imperfections - I am myself far from perfect and have done a lot of things in my life that didn't make me all others very happy, and I would be foolish to expect other people to be 100% trust-proof.

"(don't say that she is responsible for the coup - it was just a convenient cause for them to justify what they have been planning all along)"
Thats quite interesting, because her stealing the book was the only reason they even came to Kirkwall and the rampant vices convinced them that Kirkwall needed a purging.

Isabela "saves" the city. Right.
She comes along to kill people and take stuff.
Its Hawke who saves the city, she bails if you didnt give her the gratification she wants. (sex, booze, gold).


"Steal a few things".
You are aware that shes a pirate?

And Isabela is not "a thousand times" better than me.
She is scum purely driven out of greed.

As for those prisoners, she could simply have been angry over not getting enough gold out of the deal and betrayed Castillon.

Right. She is a greedy scum, and every her action that contradicts it was done out of greed still. I don't really see what there is to talk about: I like Isabela, you don't like her, so let's just agree to disagree.

You do know what his leadership did for the German economy prior to the war due to the state it was in after WW1? It was not the slaughtering of millions that Gravath where hinting at here but that is a 100% off topic subject so il just leave it at that and recommend you to use Google if interested.

Yes, I am aware of it. As I said before, it is the final result that matters. You can always pick some deed of a person and judge him her by it alone, but it is wrong. If there is any judgment of a person to be made, it should be only by the final results they've got. And the final results are as such: as a result of Hitler's action, Germany lost the war and was split in half, one half totally stripped of any freedom of choice and prone to an overwhelming amount of sanctions, another half becoming a Soviet's slave. As a result of Isabela's actions, as I said, Qunari coup was halted, Templars were stopped from establishing a totalitarian dictatorship in Kirkwall, countless organisations of thugs and blood mages were destroyed... So, here you go.

If Hitler hadn't committed genocide. He would be regarded among the greatest German leaders. Their economy was in the dumps after WW1. He united that country and got their shit together. But he will never be known for that, because of his crimes against humanity.

Perhaps. His biggest mistake, however (and I'm talking about mistakes in management, not moral mistakes), was not the genocide, but the war he started hoping to conquer the entire Europe. This mistake cost him and his country everything. We can praise his economical achievement as much as we want, but in the end it all went downhill due to his decisions and his decisions alone.

I can understand why Isabella did what she did. From all interactions with her, she has never produced that stab you in the back vibe. Just that she is very promiscuous. Which in Thedas, is completely normal.

I actually do not care for her reasons. She did what she thought was right, and so be it. What matters is that she acknowledged (in my walkthrough) her mistake in the end and came back with sorry-s. In my eyes, the ability to acknowledge one's mistake and do something to fix it means a lot. She proved once more that she is a strong character, stronger than to hang on her past.

But then we wouldnt have history channel.


Also, we wouldnt have had that fun war that spawned countless of movies, games and technology that have resulted in multi-billion dollar revenues as well as our modern industries and made Germany into the country it is today, which is a damn good one.

Like May said, its all about the results.

Who knows what would happen if Hitler won... Maybe we would live in a totalitarian North Korea owning the entire world. Or Germany would bring its strong technological and economical system in other countries and by today we would travel freely between star systems. What matters, however, is what happened in the real life. No sense theorising what could happen if something went differently - in the real life, Hitler failed terribly, and that is how history will remember him, as a failed dude.

[Deleted]

If you read the Mistborn trilogy, the first book, you will understand what I mean. The thing is, I don't expect my friends to be perfect, and I will never criticize them for their imperfections - I am myself far from perfect and have done a lot of things in my life that didn't make me all others very happy, and I would be foolish to expect other people to be 100% trust-proof.

If you cant trust your friends, then they arent your friends.

[zealo]

If you cant trust your friends, then they arent your friends.

That goes without saying in its fundamentals but its still foolish to expect someone to be trust-worthy to 100% without a single flaw, no one is perfect.

[May90]

If you cant trust your friends, then they arent your friends.

By your definition of friends, maybe. By my definition, everyone with whom I have mutual interests and kind relations is my friend. I don't need to rely on them to call them friends. If someone is devoted to me so much that he/she will help me in any situation, sacrificing his/her interests in the process, then I will run away from such a person as fast as I can, for both my and his/her sake.

Isabela has left me for a while because, for a while, our interests were different. I am glad that she hasn't sacrificed her life just to please me - that's exactly the kind of person I want to be around, who knows his/her own worth and for whom relations with other people are not slave leashes, but mutually beneficial connections.

[Vightnic]

I can forgive Isabela. She actually overcomes her nature for Hawke, when you play it right. She becomes a better person. Granted, this can be said about most companions that spend significant time around the protagonist in Bioware games. Even Loghain technically becomes a better person.

It may be that people who don't like Isabela's betrayal are more affected by the timing of it, than the scale. She commits it during the middle of your relationship, it is much more personal than a betrayal like Loghain's. Thing is you can't really expect a person to change overnight. Being self-interested and deceitful is her nature. It is how she has survived in a world that doesn't give a fuck about you. I'm not saying that is the only way to survive, but it was hers.

It is always hard to judge characters with flaws like hers because as the protagonist in these games you always exist in an equally grey moral state. No matter how much you may try to play the Paragon you end up killing massive amounts of people. Usually it is self-defense, and usually they're criminals or otherwise just low-lifes. But sometimes you have to make choices where innocents will die, and maybe they die in any case, but you still made a choice that resulted in death. I have to believe in redemption for other characters if I can believe in it for myself.

Except in the case of Loghain... I killed him every time. Not so much because he doesn't deserve a chance at redemption, but because the cost of it was something I was unwilling to pay. Redemption is also why I always allow Zevran and Sten to join the party. People often forget Sten murdered an innocent family because he lost his sword. He never really gets punished for that. Does helping end the blight atone for what he did? I dunno, like I said it's a giant grey area.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I can forgive Isabela. She actually overcomes her nature for Hawke, when you play it right. She becomes a better person. Granted, this can be said about most companions that spend significant time around the protagonist in Bioware games. Even Loghain technically becomes a better person.

It may be that people who don't like Isabela's betrayal are more affected by the timing of it, than the scale. She commits it during the middle of your relationship, it is much more personal than a betrayal like Loghain's. Thing is you can't really expect a person to change overnight. Being self-interested and deceitful is her nature. It is how she has survived in a world that doesn't give a fuck about you. I'm not saying that is the only way to survive, but it was hers.

It is always hard to judge characters with flaws like hers because as the protagonist in these games you always exist in an equally grey moral state. No matter how much you may try to play the Paragon you end up killing massive amounts of people. Usually it is self-defense, and usually they're criminals or otherwise just low-lifes. But sometimes you have to make choices where innocents will die, and maybe they die in any case, but you still made a choice that resulted in death. I have to believe in redemption for other characters if I can believe in it for myself.

Except in the case of Loghain... I killed him every time. Not so much because he doesn't deserve a chance at redemption, but because the cost of it was something I was unwilling to pay. Redemption is also why I always allow Zevran and Sten to join the party. People often forget Sten murdered an innocent family because he lost his sword. He never really gets punished for that. Does helping end the blight atone for what he did? I dunno, like I said it's a giant grey area.

That's an issue with the RPG part of the game while it's good needs to be refined. Being shoehorned into a grey area and there's no other option isn't exactly interesting to me. Take the beginning of Dragon Age II. Work with a Merc and or a Smuggler. Gee.....those options suck. I chose Merc every time despite the fact my character(Me, Aeluron) would hate both but I had to do it to get through the game.

[Deleted]

its still foolish to expect someone to be trust-worthy to 100% without a single flaw, no one is perfect.

Obviously, but people who are unreliable shouldnt be relied on (obviously)
May90 seems to want to be taken advantage of.
Or maybe he just loathes people so much that he will only suffer their interactions if there is something to be gained, considering how very businesslike he seems to view friendship. Almost as if he intentionally wants it to be fragile and temporary.
Could he see it like this to be rid of unnecessary people fast to avoid being taken advantage?

If someone is devoted to me so much that he/she will help me in any situation, sacrificing his/her interests in the process, then I will run away from such a person as fast as I can, for both my and his/her sake.

Now that is just retarded.

[Vightnic]

That's an issue with the RPG part of the game while it's good needs to be refined. Being shoehorned into a grey area and there's no other option isn't exactly interesting to me. Take the beginning of Dragon Age II. Work with a Merc and or a Smuggler. Gee.....those options suck. I chose Merc every time despite the fact my character(Me, Aeluron) would hate both but I had to do it to get through the game.

Well... without some restrictions you wouldn't really be playing through a narrative anymore. Grey still gives more operational freedom than the black/white dichotomy.

[Deleted]

Well... without some restrictions you wouldn't really be playing through a narrative anymore. Grey still gives more operational freedom than the black/white dichotomy.

Having a moral compass is a pretty lousy idea anyways.
The player should be the compass, and the consequences reflect your actions instead of filling an Angry/Happy bar.

But maybe not for BioWare. Their "consequences" are mostly just karma unless someone in the team dies.
Good things happens because of good choices and evil things happens because of evil choices.

So its not really what you want to do, but how many rewards you want.

[zealo]

Now that is just retarded.

Depends on how clingy the person in question is, i can kind of understand him somewhat depending on the context.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Having a moral compass is a pretty lousy idea anyways.
The player should be the compass, and the consequences reflect your actions instead of filling an Angry/Happy bar.

I don't think it's lousy. I think being shoehorned into a grey situation is just as bad. Yes it happens IRL but it's a game come on. My complaint was about the merc and Smuggler route.


Oh and Anders hating you gay or not.

[Vightnic]

Having a moral compass is a pretty lousy idea anyways.
The player should be the compass, and the consequences reflect your actions instead of filling an Angry/Happy bar.

But maybe not for BioWare. Their "consequences" are mostly just karma unless someone in the team dies.
Good things happens because of good choices and evil things happens because of evil choices.

So its not really what you want to do, but how many rewards you want.

I agree, and I think developers are moving away from that. It showed in ME3. They still had the Paragon/Renegade measuring stick but you weren't restricted from those choices in dialogue when you had enough reputation.

[Deleted]

Depends on how clingy the person in question is, i can kind of understand him somewhat depending on the context.

Then you smack 'em on the nose and tell them "NO STALKING!".
Or just cut them.

[Vightnic]

More on-topic has anyone heard anything interesting out of PAX East about DA:I? All I got out of those 3 days was that Cullen is coming as a companion, and that he and Cassandra are romance options.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I agree, and I think developers are moving away from that. It showed in ME3. They still had the Paragon/Renegade measuring stick but you weren't restricted from those choices in dialogue when you had enough reputation.

Umm that's what I was asking. More options in replying. SHoehorning into a situation where I kinda have to isn't fun. Of course chosing to defend the mages and then the leader of mages there decides to use Blood Magic makes me go "................I defended you...fffs"

[Deleted]

Of course chosing to defend the mages and then the leader of mages there decides to use Blood Magic makes me go "................I defended you...fffs"

Or how we couldnt romance Meredith and rule Kirkwall together.

[May90]

Obviously, but people who are unreliable shouldnt be relied on (obviously)
May90 seems to want to be taken advantage of.
Or maybe he just loathes people so much that he will only suffer their interactions if there is something to be gained, considering how very businesslike he seems to view friendship. Almost as if he intentionally wants it to be fragile and temporary.
Could he see it like this to be rid of unnecessary people fast to avoid being taken advantage?

I know you love to troll, Gravath, but I will be serious here. The thing is, I want people to accept each other the way they are. I don't care if someone does something that I strongly dislike - I won't respect them less for that and I won't criticize them, I accept them the way they are, with all their flaws and prejudices. So, when I befriend someone, I do it out of mutual benefit: this person gives something to me, I give something to him/her. I will never tell anyone, "You, Isabela, did a really bad thing yesterday". Whatever she did, she did because she thought it right, and if I think it wrong, then so be it, opinions differ, I can live with that. I love other people just... well, just because they are people, and I don't require anything in return. If someone acts against my interests, I won't feel worse towards that person, I will just do whatever I can to protect my interests.

Isabela may have done something that could result in my death. That's OK, it is her decision. I do not love her less for that and I understand her decision. When she comes back, I won't tell her, "Isabela, how could you? Now you understand how wrong you were". I will tell her, "Welcome back. What are you going to drink Isy?".

You, mister Gravath, do not understand one thing. You can judge other people for their good deeds. You can judge them for their terrible deeds. You can judge them for both. OR you can ignore judging them and just accept them as they are, with all their pros and cons, not giving a simplified final judgement. Isabela has helped me a lot and I have helped her a lot, and I do not really care how often she sleeps with sailors or steals piles of gold from the rich - she is my friend and I won't judge her for what she does, I just like her and that's it.

Just like I don't judge you for anything you write here. If you disagree with me, I don't mind, you are not less a person to me because of it.

[zealo]

Umm that's what I was asking. More options in replying. SHoehorning into a situation where I kinda have to isn't fun. Of course chosing to defend the mages and then the leader of mages there decides to use Blood Magic makes me go "................I defended you...fffs"

To me that just proved the point of why the templars needed to be fought, these mages would not have turned to blood magic if the templars did not push them so much.

It would also have felt very awkward for a mage Hawke to side with the templars...Anyhow, will be interesting to see how big that conflict becomes in DA:I

[Vightnic]

Isabela may have done something that could result in my death. That's OK, it is her decision. I do not love her less for that and I understand her decision. When she comes back, I won't tell her, "Isabela, how could you? Now you understand how wrong you were". I will tell her, "Welcome back. What are you going to drink Isy?".

I don't see how being completely morally blind is a good thing...

If my friend became a violent racist and started harassing minorities... then we wouldn't be friends anymore. Loyalty is a great thing, don't get me wrong, but it must be deserved and maintained. It doesn't exist in a vacuum.

[Deleted]

So if i stab you or murder your family, will you still be so indifferent?

Do you really want to be betrayed and abused?

If my friend became a violent racist and started harassing minorities... then we wouldn't be friends anymore.

And then we have Vightnic who cares too much about what people does to other people.

Balance people, balance!

It would also have felt very awkward for a mage Hawke to side with the templars...

Being a sarcastic anti-mage mage makes for amusing dialogue.