Garrosh Hellscream and to those who liked him

[Trassk]

Damn, Trassk, that was a long one indeed. Sadly, again its in your common "I don't wanna offend you, everybody has his opinion, but sadly yours is fucking stupid" manner.

You talk about ignoring the bad qualities about Garrosh? Well, nobody can ignore them, and nobody does. Like your villian or not, there is no chance NOT to accept the fact that everything he has done recently is quite evil. So, nobody tries to argue here, he is just one step to "I will rape your Perky Pug if you summon one" evilness level.

However you seem to ignore the good qualities about Garrosh. And there were many, as easy to spot as the evil acts of MoP. Stonetalon example is being beaten to death, but again - Stonetalon. His motives - prosperity to the Horde, living in a desert. Horde - not just orcs, he never acted racist before MoP. His tactical mind, praised by the whole Horde and Thrall himself. There are many good traits about this character.

You always try to deny the theory that Garrosh is a resoult of extremly bad writing and a major retcon. Say then, what would the current Garrosh do in Cairnes situation? Would he grieve, because the duel was made unhonorable by Magatha? No - he would ask her to give him the poison in the first place. Would he deny her offer to attack Thunder Bluff? No - he would raither use it as an opportunity to place a certain ally as the leader of the Tauren. And tell me - what would the current Garrosh do, hearing the Vol'Jin's threats about "arrows piercing black hearts"? I don't think I would be as generous as to let somebody who threatened me with death to leave without repercussions. Can't really imagine the horrors current Garrosh would have done.

So, people who - like me - like Garrosh, are people pretty much betrayed by a huge retcon, where a character who had both a bad and a good side was turned into the most transparent villian ever. Back in Cata I was really looking forward to seeing what next lies ahead for the Horde, to clashes with Alliance, to the continuation of the Kalimdor expansion. Because Garrosh was a good leader in my eyes. Making a character that a lot of players like just to slap them in the face, saying "fuck you, now kill him"? Seems being bi-polar and interesting isn't a common character trait seen in WoW after Cataclysm.

And by the way - what is the depth of Varian and Thrall you mentioned? I can understand Thrall, being torn between his shitty decision and having to deal with it and being a family man, but Varian? He is just another example of a bad retcon. The duality between the hot-headed warrior and a newly appointed leader? Gone, now our king is pretty much "the good guy Allys listen to".

let me just say this right now. If someone likes a character for being a giant douchebag for the reason that he is this way, because he does bad things, because he is ignorant, or cruel, or a bully, or every other vice, and you like him because he is this way, THAT I have no problem with. Its not what I like in any character, but if you get off on a character who is this way, thats as reasonable as it can be for liking a character like this.

My gripe comes from people, who know the bad things he does, and actually tries to excuse it outright, as if anything he does is okay and its not him thats the bad guy, its everyone else who doesn't understand him. Bullshit, he's a bad guy and does bad things because he is a giant douche, and not being able to accept that and trying to twist the truth of that into something he isn't, thats what pisses me off.

MasterOfKnees summed it up perfectly, he likes him as a character because he is this way, and he isn't looking for excuses to pardon his behavior. As far as reasonable excuses goes, thats great.
Trying to take all the bad shit he's done, and turn it back on itself like its all justified, *Garrosh kills a family, cuts off there heads, shits down there necks and laughs well he does it", trying to turn that into something other then being a monster, is just beyond belief.

If you like the character because he is a giant dick, then good for you, you at least know the score. Otherwise.. man, just, get a clue -_-

[Okacz]

let me just say this right now. If someone likes a character for being a giant douchebag for the reason that he is this way, because he does bad things, because he is ignorant, or cruel, or a bully, or every other vice, and you like him because he is this way, THAT I have no problem with. Its not what I like in any character, but if you get off on a character who is this way, thats as reasonable as it can be for liking a character like this.

My gripe comes from people, who know the bad things he does, and actually tries to excuse it outright, as if anything he does is okay and its not him thats the bad guy, its everyone else who doesn't understand him. Bullshit, he's a bad guy and does bad things because he is a giant douche, and not being able to accept that and trying to twist the truth of that into something he isn't, thats what pisses me off.

MasterOfKnees summed it up perfectly, he likes him as a character because he is this way, and he isn't looking for excuses to pardon his behavior. As far as reasonable excuses goes, thats great.
Trying to take all the bad shit he's done, and turn it back on itself like its all justified, *Garrosh kills a family, cuts off there heads, shits down there necks and laughs well he does it", trying to turn that into something other then being a monster, is just beyond belief.

If you like the character because he is a giant dick, then good for you, you at least know the score. Otherwise.. man, just, get a clue -_-

The fact that he is just doing evil stuff and is a douche is not a reason I like (or I did) this character.

[Anjerith]

I submit that, assuming Garrosh actually dies, we will be the worse for the loss of a character that inspires such fervent debate.

[Pua]

I'm not judging people...

Oh, okay.

But hey, people don't seem to understand the depth of characters like Varian or Thrall either, so it shouldn't be any surprise you didn't understand every aspect of Garrosh, only choosing the parts you liked.

I see.

No judgement.

None.

Gotcha.

[Cannis866]

I like Garrosh because he's a "bad guy." It's his bad qualities that I enjoy.

Yeah that is the same reason for me. Still will be my favorite char.

[Trassk]

The fact that he is just doing evil stuff and is a douche is not a reason I like (or I did) this character.

I think then, where as Masterofknees had perfect reason for liking such a character because he actually kept up with what the character was actually doing as a bad guy, you, and others, took on the small threads of few good things Garrosh did, and cut off from the rest of it. Even accusing the developers of doing this because of bad writing, well, those who liked Garrosh as the bad guy don't see his progression in this manner, so really whos to blame here?

[Pengalor]

I should have stopped reading there, because I should have known someone comparing "The Lord of the Rings" with shitty Blizzard writing has no clue.

Instead I stopped reading here:



What a load of bull. Either you only saw the movies or you didn't read the books very well if this is your final verdict.

Indeed. Pretty much all I see in the OP is "Well, this is how I see Garrosh's action, if you don't agree you're wrong". Then again, I don't think I've ever seen Trassk in a thread where he wasn't bashing Garrosh so it's not like he's an unbiased source.

[Drilnos]

I liked him back when he was a complex character. He is now a cartoon character. He has been purposefully made as unlikable as is humanly possible. The fanbase, if you can even call it that, is divided into two parts. The first dates back to pre-MoP, when the things this character did made sense, and had some semblance of nuance. They liked that the Horde was taking a more militaristic bent without sacrificing its honor, for the same reason that you get all these half-crazed Alliance goons wondering where their next "fist-pumping" moment is going to come from. The second is more recent, and they just like them a good old-fashioned two-dimensional villain to hate.

I know the response from the OP before he even types it out. He was always a 2D baby-munching villain. On that point you and I are just going to disagree.

[Wyattbw09]

"To his fans, they only saw Garrosh as the ultimate orc, he was big, aggressive, loud, he roared, he spat in peoples faces, and did some things people liked about as a leader. Heck, some of this actually comes from people only having an intrest in the old warcraft story, when it was good humans against bad orc, Garrosh heralded them back to those days of the mauarding orcs who killed without remorse."

I'll respond to the part. For me at least, I liked Garrosh, not because he was ultimate orc, but because he represented something different. He was an opportunity to get away from the green Jesus character that had to be perfect in every way shape and form. Thrall rather then being an orc is a just the perfect representation of a human. He has nothing left of orcness and is simply a the perfect human being and that got kind of tiresome.

Garrosh, did not have to become the terrible one dimensional shit hole of a character that Blizzard turned him into. I wanted Garrosh to be a character that had lens and a world perspective that both drove him to great heights and great depths. His hatred for the Alliance could have made him commit atrocities against Thereamore and people could have hated him for it. That could have been balanced by him going to heroic lengths to protect a minor and insignificant member of the Horde which would have made people love him.

Instead they just made him a brute with nothing more that hulk smash mentality. I still love Garrosh for the character he should have been rather then crappy character he became.

[Okacz]

I think then, where as Masterofknees had perfect reason for liking such a character because he actually kept up with what the character was actually doing as a bad guy, you, and others, took on the small threads of few good things Garrosh did, and cut off from the rest of it. Even accusing the developers of doing this because of bad writing, well, those who liked Garrosh as the bad guy don't see his progression in this manner, so really whos to blame here?

You and I have a different interpretation of Garrosh in Cata. You believe this character was created just to be the one to kill off, right? And therefore, his actions all lead to being transparently evil. Therefore, Mists of Pandaria Garrosh is nota retcon, he is just a continuation of an idea.

For me, Garrosh is just a character who was thrown onto the Warchiefs seat for no reason, and even then, he managed to do his job quite well. I liked his actions and the motives behind them, I liked when the war stopped being Shakespearian tragic romance and started being War, where both sides have rights and demands, and have to fight for them. I liked his design, his approach to certain things (warlocks, Sylvanas rising dead with Valkyr etc), I sympatized with him when the advisors left with him proven to be more hot headed then him, and left him without help. And I liked the fact that, despite doing things for the right reasons, his actions and methods were, shall I say, reckless. Because this gave him some depth. When most characters in WoW are either "paragons of heavens" or "mad and twisted maniacs", he was the one who was neither.

So, if my interpretation of Garrosh is plain and simply wrong, then indeed, I'm to blame here.

[Arrashi]

Damn, Trassk, that was a long one indeed. Sadly, again its in your common "I don't wanna offend you, everybody has his opinion, but sadly yours is fucking stupid" manner.

You talk about ignoring the bad qualities about Garrosh? Well, nobody can ignore them, and nobody does. Like your villian or not, there is no chance NOT to accept the fact that everything he has done recently is quite evil. So, nobody tries to argue here, he is just one step to "I will rape your Perky Pug if you summon one" evilness level.

However you seem to ignore the good qualities about Garrosh. And there were many, as easy to spot as the evil acts of MoP. Stonetalon example is being beaten to death, but again - Stonetalon. His motives - prosperity to the Horde, living in a desert. Horde - not just orcs, he never acted racist before MoP. His tactical mind, praised by the whole Horde and Thrall himself. There are many good traits about this character.

You always try to deny the theory that Garrosh is a resoult of extremly bad writing and a major retcon. Say then, what would the current Garrosh do in Cairnes situation? Would he grieve, because the duel was made unhonorable by Magatha? No - he would ask her to give him the poison in the first place. Would he deny her offer to attack Thunder Bluff? No - he would raither use it as an opportunity to place a certain ally as the leader of the Tauren. And tell me - what would the current Garrosh do, hearing the Vol'Jin's threats about "arrows piercing black hearts"? I don't think I would be as generous as to let somebody who threatened me with death to leave without repercussions. Can't really imagine the horrors current Garrosh would have done.

So, people who - like me - like Garrosh, are people pretty much betrayed by a huge retcon, where a character who had both a bad and a good side was turned into the most transparent villian ever. Back in Cata I was really looking forward to seeing what next lies ahead for the Horde, to clashes with Alliance, to the continuation of the Kalimdor expansion. Because Garrosh was a good leader in my eyes. Making a character that a lot of players like just to slap them in the face, saying "fuck you, now kill him"? Seems being bi-polar and interesting isn't a common character trait seen in WoW after Cataclysm.

And by the way - what is the depth of Varian and Thrall you mentioned? I can understand Thrall, being torn between his shitty decision and having to deal with it and being a family man, but Varian? He is just another example of a bad retcon. The duality between the hot-headed warrior and a newly appointed leader? Gone, now our king is pretty much "the good guy Allys listen to".

This is a very good post, i will just add few things.

Big problem with warcraft uniwerse past vanilla is that it grew... soft. Boring. One dimensional. It manifested first in "great insanity" known as TBC for sake of "lets butcher many lore characters since we dont have idea for bosses, YEEEEAH". It set that milestone, for villains being insane, stupid retarded and having no real motivation. It also started the "players are flawless and do no wrong" trend.

Now while it wasnt that bad for tbc and wotlk, as story was simple and didnt had that much narration, in cataclysm, with more polished phasing and bigger focus on story things went really bad. All thrall apperances aside from goblin starting zone, we annoying, felt really forced, and on top of that made him into uninteresting overpowered protagonist. Complete failure known as 4.2 questline " I HAVE FEELINGS TOOOOOOO" made it obnoxious. With mop, things get alot worse, with story forcing characters like anduin, wrathion, taran zhu, or worst case vol'jin. They arent interesting. They are your typicall one dimensional moralfags who always know best. And thats why story around them is boring.

Now you can ask where is garrosh in all this ? Well, unlike most characters garrosh isnt (wasnt) omnipotent. He dont know what decision will be the best in a long run. He isnt blessed by deity he dont care (lolvarian), he isnt target of prophercy of ultimate mary sueness (lolanduin) he isnt choosen of elements (lolthrall) and he isnt most powerfull human mage loaded with artifacts of all kinds (loljaina).

Garrosh is an orc. With axe. And that makes him awesome. No hidden powers. No prophercy. Just character against the world. Is garrosh stupid ? Not more than your average orc. Does he fall into tricks ? They are supposed to be effective after all. Does he gives blowjobs left and right and become best friends with everyone even members of opposite faction ? Hell no why would he.

Garrosh was first (and probably last) attempt to create actually realistic character. Character dedicated to his cause, not to make world better place. In a sea of morons like vol'jin, mary sues like anduin, asslickers like baine, garrosh was that one dude who was diffrent. Who could bring change.

Many people say "hurr durr garrush destroyed horde !!!" But think about it. Could vol'jin get any development during peace ? Could theron ? Or baine ?
No !!! We need internal conflicts inside factions as well as horde/alliance conflict as its only area where character development can progress. What can they do during legion invasion ? Say that legion is evil and all nod ? Pull out sacrefice ? And thats it. A story where everyone is agreeing is BORING. That why we needed garrosh. And thats why i liked him.

[nomad1206]

I grew up with Thrall, even though he is and was a Mary Sue character i liked the feeling he gave, the unity he provided. Do i hate Garrosh? Yes i do! Why? Because he took away that feeling of awesomeness i had during vanilla-tbc. I liked the combo Thrall- Saurfang in Orgrimmar! But i know this will sound weird but i also like Garrosh! Why? Because he is a villain in the true sense of the word, no insanity bs or corrupted bs, he is that kind of a villain that believes so much in his cause that he fails to see he is unwanted and all of that. Also people tend to like negative characters, for example The Joker from the dark knight. Hell that was a true villain.

[Trassk]

I grew up with Thrall, even though he is and was a Mary Sue character i liked the feeling he gave, the unity he provided. Do i hate Garrosh? Yes i do! Why? Because he took away that feeling of awesomeness i had during vanilla-tbc. I liked the combo Thrall- Saurfang in Orgrimmar! But i know this will sound weird but i also like Garrosh! Why? Because he is a villain in the true sense of the word, no insanity bs or corrupted bs, he is that kind of a villain that believes so much in his cause that he fails to see he is unwanted and all of that. Also people tend to like negative characters, for example The Joker from the dark knight. Hell that was a true villain.

This is what I can get behind too, when people just stop flapping there arms about like pigeons and accept Garrosh is a character, much like Arthas, destined to be a bag guy, this was where he would end up, and none of it was a deviation by the developers. Those that think it was just clung to an ideal they thought the character represented, rather then seeing him as the bad guy.

[Nomial17]

OP doesnt like Garrosh because he's a douche in MoP, tries to rationalize his thoughts and use MoP's story to form a hypothesis about his character development in Cata/wrath.

Varian used to be a hot headed douchebag too. Luckily for Varian, his people weren't placed in a desert with little to no natural resources. Yea, i'm sure Varian completely understands why Garrosh wanted to expand and obtain so much territory.


Garrosh did what he had to do, unfortunately for him, he took things much to far and became to arrogant and prideful.

Quit acting like he was like this since his inception.

[Okacz]

This is a very good post, i will just add few things.

Big problem with warcraft uniwerse past vanilla is that it grew... soft. Boring. One dimensional. It manifested first in "great insanity" known as TBC for sake of "lets butcher many lore characters since we dont have idea for bosses, YEEEEAH". It set that milestone, for villains being insane, stupid retarded and having no real motivation. It also started the "players are flawless and do no wrong" trend.

Now while it wasnt that bad for tbc and wotlk, as story was simple and didnt had that much narration, in cataclysm, with more polished phasing and bigger focus on story things went really bad. All thrall apperances aside from goblin starting zone, we annoying, felt really forced, and on top of that made him into uninteresting overpowered protagonist. Complete failure known as 4.2 questline " I HAVE FEELINGS TOOOOOOO" made it obnoxious. With mop, things get alot worse, with story forcing characters like anduin, wrathion, taran zhu, or worst case vol'jin. They arent interesting. They are your typicall one dimensional moralfags who always know best. And thats why story around them is boring.

Now you can ask where is garrosh in all this ? Well, unlike most characters garrosh isnt (wasnt) omnipotent. He dont know what decision will be the best in a long run. He isnt blessed by deity he dont care (lolvarian), he isnt target of prophercy of ultimate mary sueness (lolanduin) he isnt choosen of elements (lolthrall) and he isnt most powerfull human mage loaded with artifacts of all kinds (loljaina).

Garrosh is an orc. With axe. And that makes him awesome. No hidden powers. No prophercy. Just character against the world. Is garrosh stupid ? Not more than your average orc. Does he fall into tricks ? They are supposed to be effective after all. Does he gives blowjobs left and right and become best friends with everyone even members of opposite faction ? Hell no why would he.

Garrosh was first (and probably last) attempt to create actually realistic character. Character dedicated to his cause, not to make world better place. In a sea of morons like vol'jin, mary sues like anduin, asslickers like baine, garrosh was that one dude who was diffrent. Who could bring change.

Many people say "hurr durr garrush destroyed horde !!!" But think about it. Could vol'jin get any development during peace ? Could theron ? Or baine ?
No !!! We need internal conflicts inside factions as well as horde/alliance conflict as its only area where character development can progress. What can they do during legion invasion ? Say that legion is evil and all nod ? Pull out sacrefice ? And thats it. A story where everyone is agreeing is BORING. That why we needed garrosh. And thats why i liked him.

Yeah, thats a good point as well. Garrosh, being a character who, well, is not powerfull in any way compared to other leaders and lore figures, is a being that can make mistakes. I guess that could be also the undoing of the character. Seems having realistic and relateable characters in a MMO game is too much, story where a good guys have to beat the living loot out of the bad guys is way more functional in this enviroment.

[Wyattbw09]

This is a very good post, i will just add few things.

Big problem with warcraft uniwerse past vanilla is that it grew... soft. Boring. One dimensional. It manifested first in "great insanity" known as TBC for sake of "lets butcher many lore characters since we dont have idea for bosses, YEEEEAH". It set that milestone, for villains being insane, stupid retarded and having no real motivation. It also started the "players are flawless and do no wrong" trend.

Now while it wasnt that bad for tbc and wotlk, as story was simple and didnt had that much narration, in cataclysm, with more polished phasing and bigger focus on story things went really bad. All thrall apperances aside from goblin starting zone, we annoying, felt really forced, and on top of that made him into uninteresting overpowered protagonist. Complete failure known as 4.2 questline " I HAVE FEELINGS TOOOOOOO" made it obnoxious. With mop, things get alot worse, with story forcing characters like anduin, wrathion, taran zhu, or worst case vol'jin. They arent interesting. They are your typicall one dimensional moralfags who always know best. And thats why story around them is boring.

Now you can ask where is garrosh in all this ? Well, unlike most characters garrosh isnt (wasnt) omnipotent. He dont know what decision will be the best in a long run. He isnt blessed by deity he dont care (lolvarian), he isnt target of prophercy of ultimate mary sueness (lolanduin) he isnt choosen of elements (lolthrall) and he isnt most powerfull human mage loaded with artifacts of all kinds (loljaina).

Garrosh is an orc. With axe. And that makes him awesome. No hidden powers. No prophercy. Just character against the world. Is garrosh stupid ? Not more than your average orc. Does he fall into tricks ? They are supposed to be effective after all. Does he gives blowjobs left and right and become best friends with everyone even members of opposite faction ? Hell no why would he.

Garrosh was first (and probably last) attempt to create actually realistic character. Character dedicated to his cause, not to make world better place. In a sea of morons like vol'jin, mary sues like anduin, asslickers like baine, garrosh was that one dude who was diffrent. Who could bring change.

Many people say "hurr durr garrush destroyed horde !!!" But think about it. Could vol'jin get any development during peace ? Could theron ? Or baine ?
No !!! We need internal conflicts inside factions as well as horde/alliance conflict as its only area where character development can progress. What can they do during legion invasion ? Say that legion is evil and all nod ? Pull out sacrefice ? And thats it. A story where everyone is agreeing is BORING. That why we needed garrosh. And thats why i liked him.

Quote for truth.

[Trassk]

OP doesnt like Garrosh because he's a douche in MoP, tries to rationalize his thoughts and use MoP's story to form a hypothesis about his character development in Cata/wrath.

Varian used to be a hot headed douchebag too. Luckily for Varian, his people weren't placed in a desert with little to no natural resources. Yea, i'm sure Varian completely understands why Garrosh wanted to expand and obtain so much territory.


Garrosh did what he had to do, unfortunately for him, he took things much to far and became to arrogant and prideful.

Quit acting like he was like this since his inception.

*Nomial17 comes on and gives a load of waffle without looking at the the broader sense of scoop*

You really assume Garrosh became this what he is now out of random, and he was destined for great things that he would unionize the horde and lead them into the future..
Sorry but I need to catch my breath after that, laughing so hard..

you failed to follow along the narrative of the story, you failed to notice what other lore characters noticed, and these are fictional characters, what the developers were dropping hints at all this time. Hell, if a fictional character can notice how another character is developing and you can't, it speaks volumes to ones lack of foresight.

[Wyattbw09]

*Nomial17 comes on and gives a load of waffle without looking at the the broader sense of scoop*

You really assume Garrosh became this what he is now out of random, and he was destined for great things that he would unionize the horde and lead them into the future..
Sorry but I need to catch my breath after that, laughing so hard..

you failed to follow along the narrative of the story, you failed to notice what other lore characters noticed, and these are fictional characters, what the developers were dropping hints at all this time. Hell, if a fictional character can notice how another character is developing and you can't, it speaks volumes to ones lack of foresight.

I once played a game called Dragonrealms. At one point the developers wanted to shake things up a bit so they developed the Outcast war. The Outcasts were a group of elves who at one point were banished from their homeland by a new race that had showed up. In the end, the Outcasts were supposed to win this war and become the dominate faction in this area displacing the current leadership who was largely exiled or executed. This was the plan since day one was for the Outcasts to become a major part of the game.

Well players howled, and cried, some character even perm-killed themselves because they wanted things to stay exactly as they were before. It want on and on. Eventually the developers basically said screw this is not worth the headache and magically overnight all the Outcasts went back the desert they came from, and were never really heard from again.

The point is that a lot of people including me think that is what happened with Garrosh. Garrosh was not going to be this crazy idiotic character, but so many people complained and whined and cried about have anything other then Thrall be "Warchief" that the developers sometime after Cata had launched basically said screw it, this is not worth the headache. So, they just made Garrosh this crazy orc who we are going to kill at the end.

[Trassk]

I once played a game called Dragonrealms. At one point the developers wanted to shake things up a bit so they developed the Outcast war. The Outcasts were a group of elves who at one point were banished from their homeland by a new race that had showed up. In the end, the Outcasts were supposed to win this war and become the dominate faction in this area displacing the current leadership who was largely exiled or executed. This was the plan since day one was for the Outcasts to become a major part of the game.

Well players howled, and cried, some character even perm-killed themselves because they wanted things to stay exactly as they were before. It want on and on. Eventually the developers basically said screw this is not worth the headache and magically overnight all the Outcasts went back the desert they came from, and were never really heard from again.

The point is that a lot of people including me think that is what happened with Garrosh. Garrosh was not going to be this crazy idiotic character, but so many people complained and whined and cried about have anything other then Thrall be "Warchief" that the developers sometime after Cata had launched basically said screw it, this is not worth the headache. So, they just made Garrosh this crazy orc who we are going to kill at the end.

if thats so, then it just goes on something I said a while ago, developers manage to make there games and lore from nothing, and yet the moment they let the fanbase influence the games direction, is when the story turns to shit, in every genre.

[Epic Taco]

The point is that a lot of people including me think that is what happened with Garrosh. Garrosh was not going to be this crazy idiotic character, but so many people complained and whined and cried about have anything other then Thrall be "Warchief" that the developers sometime after Cata had launched basically said screw it, this is not worth the headache. So, they just made Garrosh this crazy orc who we are going to kill at the end.

I agree with this. Especially with blue posts like this one all but saying "He'll get better."

Of course, it wouldn't be the only time a Blue Post said something we didn't recieve. (Referring to the "in-game event" part).