Is Math a Feature of the Universe or a Feature of Human Creation?

[crzyman007]

Math is invisible. Unlike physics, chemistry, and biology we can't see it, smell it, or even directly observe it in the universe. And so that has made a lot of really smart people ask, does it actually even EXIST?!?! Similar to the tree falling in the forest, there are people who believe that if no person existed to count, math wouldn't be around . .at ALL!!!! But is this true? Do we live in a mathless universe? Or if math is a real entity that exists, are there formulas and mathematical concepts out there in the universe that are undiscovered? Or is it all fiction? Whew!! So many questions, so many theories... watch the episode and let me know what you think!

[Alvito]

I can't see the wind but that doesn't mean it isn't real.

[Tradewind]

If you have 2 of one thing and 2 of another thing, you have 4 of both...

How is that a "human construct?"

[Dispersedshadow]

If you have 2 of one thing and 2 of another thing, you have 4 of both...

4 of both...so 8 total?

[Merite]

Math and Logic just exist. Theories could be a human creation, if they're simply theories. Other than that, I don't see any reason why math wouldn't be universal. I think people who argue the opposite are just arguing for the sake of arguing, to try and find their niche and use their otherwise wasted philosophy degree.

[imabanana]

Math is invisible. Unlike physics, chemistry, and biology we can't see it, smell it, or even directly observe it in the universe. And so that has made a lot of really smart people ask, does it actually even EXIST?!?! Similar to the tree falling in the forest, there are people who believe that if no person existed to count, math wouldn't be around . .at ALL!!!! But is this true? Do we live in a mathless universe? Or if math is a real entity that exists, are there formulas and mathematical concepts out there in the universe that are undiscovered? Or is it all fiction? Whew!! So many questions, so many theories... watch the episode and let me know what you think!

I don't even know where to start, maths can not be visible, maths can not "exist".

Mathematics only does one thing, saying "if X, then Y", and proves it without any doubt. But this having any meaning at all in "real life" is not a concern of mathematics.

Mathematics concepts out there in the universe ? What the **** does that mean ?

[Garnier Fructis]

I think the best way to describe mathematics is that it is both discovered and invented.

[Underverse]

If you have 2 of one thing and 2 of another thing, you have 4 of both...

How is that a "human construct?"

Numbers in general could be a human construct. The concept of having 'one' thing. And it's possible that this is why our physical laws tend to break down on very small scales, because we're using our concept of numbers, which might not exist, to explain a numberless entity.

[Helais]

Numbers in general could be a human construct. The concept of having 'one' thing. And it's possible that this is why our physical laws tend to break down on very small scales, because we're using our concept of numbers, which might not exist, to explain a numberless entity.

Numbers are a human construct. What numbers represent are not. Our physical laws tend to break down at small scales because not because of a numberless entity but because the properties of matter and the forces at these levels have vastly different effects.

[danman64]

Math is our method of understanding the workings of the universe.

Regardless of whether we understand it or not, gravity still does its job. When you think about it, the fact that we even have basic algebraic formulas like "2+4x=y" is amazing. The fact that you can plug literally any number into "x", and it results in a concrete, observable answer is incredible. So to think that we've used math to calculate things like the speed of light is just mind boggling.

That said, all those formulas are basically the result of thousands of cases of trial and error. So I would argue that math is inherently part of the universe, and the concepts of numbers and formulas are just our way of mapping it out.

However, the fact that we can create things like negative numbers or impossible values has to indicate that math is a human creation. After all, how could the universe create something that doesn't exist?

[Deleted]

Math is the best way we currently have to explain the universe. it's not a feature of the universe or of human creation, but it's an interpretation of the scientific laws we observed in the universe.

however, this is solely for the CONCEPT of math, the idea that everything can be calculated. the ways used to calculate, like the numbers and symbols we know, are human creation.

[namelessone]

In its most basic form, math is causality. To prove that math does not exist, you would have to break causality. Good luck with that.

[ComputerNerd]

Mathematics is simply our way of understanding, of modelling something which underlines the most fundamental mechanics of how our universe works.
We do not create the mechanics, the rules.
Mathematics is simply our language for expressing them.

Because if we did not have any understanding of the shape of a circle, no knowledge of the ratio between the radius and the circumference, then it would not change how those are related.

[Helais]

I think the biggest fault with his argument is saying that physics/biology/chemistry exist. They exist in the same sense that mathematics does. They are all the study of rules/laws that we use to represent/understand/explain different aspects of the universe.

[obdigore]

It is the same as time.

Both exist, but our terms and our understanding of them are human constructs that may be wrong.

[Mormolyce]

Mathematics is a system of logical induction based on axiomatic reasoning. The axioms are by their very nature unproveable.

Are we exploring something real or merely the consequences of our own assumptions? It's probably impossible to know.

P.S. What IS mathematics?

[lizon]

For those of you who read there is a book by Douglas Preston called Blasphemy where an AI pretending to be God has a conversation with a mathematician. Among this is this line that I think is relevant to the conversation here.

Pick a number at random on the real number line: with probability one you have picked a number that has no name, has no definition, and cannot be computed or written down, even if the whole universe were put to the task. This problem extends to allegedly definable numbers such as pi or the square root of two. With a computer the size of the universe running an infinite amount of time, you could not calculate either number exactly. Tell me, Edelstein (the Mathematician): How then can such numbers be said to exist? How can the circle or the square, from which these two numbers derive, exist? How can dimensional space exist, then, if it cannot be measured? You Edelstein, are like a monkey who, with heroic effort, has figured out how to count to three. You find four pebbles and think you have discovered infinity.

Math doesn't really exist when you think about it. We use math as a tool to allow us to interpret what we see and make it measurable so we can interact with the observable universe. That doesn't mean that math actually exists. It is nothing more than an illusion that we created so we wouldn't go mad trying to understand how things work.

Humans created math.

[Theodon]

Math is a form of communication that we use to communicate the concepts mathematics covers to other humans, just as how my computer telling me it's broken by pulling a bluescreen on me. Neither the universe nor my computer need to do any of that to do what they do, but we place our own methods of understanding exactly what is going within those things so we can communicate those things to other humans.

Math is like the language we all understand as it's based on something that isn't influenced by culture, but rather by everything that exists in the whole universe, which is something we are all equally a part of. Two bananas in any culture is two bananas.

[SodiumChloride]

Didn't we have a smiler topic about a month back?

Anyway, I don't care. Not of importance to me.

Infracted: Please contribute to the topic at hand (if you don't have anything to add then don't post at all).

[Rucati]

Math is just a language, in a way. It wouldn't exist in the universe without us, there would be no need for it. Gravity would still be 9.8 ms^2 with or without math, but without it we'd have no way of knowing what gravity was. Physics, biology, chemistry, etc. all exist in the universe all the time, chemicals are constantly bonding together and such, with or without humans that would happen. But math, not so much. Just like language, there's no need for language to exist if people don't exist.