Cairne, the sad and betrayed Tauren

[Durandro]

His bloodlust betrayed the honor of that duel. Had it been Thrall oe someone more intelligent he would understand that something was afoot and start the duel over after figuring it out.

Garrosh knows how to fight and would be able to see that as well but instead struck down his opponent who was poisoned.

Indeed. Seeing his opponant suddenly fall down despite inflicting the smallest wound should have set off alarm bells. Instead he leaps onto his opponant and finishes him off, then claims victory.

Again, either he's a complete fool or he planned it all along.

[Kaleredar]

This thread would probably be of more use on the official WoW forums, where the devs can see it.

[Thimagryn]

Indeed. Seeing his opponant suddenly fall down despite inflicting the smallest wound should have set off alarm bells. Instead he leaps onto his opponant and finishes him off, then claims victory.

Again, either he's a complete fool or he planned it all along.

Do or die instincts, on top of the fact that Cairn was really really really old. Any sort of hesitation is a sign of weakness in battle, and Garrosh did what any other warrior would have done. It's how Doomhammer defeated Lothar.

Sure, if it had been Thrall, he would have stopped the fight. But if it was Thrall, the Mak'gora would have never happened in the first place. And if it was Thrall, he would be second guessing his own decisions over the council of his advisors. Garrosh isn't Thrall.

[Zulkhan]

Again, either he's a complete fool or he planned it all along.

The second is unlikable, Garrosh was quite honest in his foolishness at those times, he even had SOME respect, doubts and reservations, even if hot-headed; he was Warchief by litterally nothing and power didn't go on his head, yet (but already in Cataclysm we saw how his behavior dramatically changed, becoming pompous, arrogant, constantly bashing everyone); it's much more that in his very hot-head, so near to get his precious victory, didn't consider for a single moment that something was wrong, probably not even saw which kind of wound he effectively made, and so he just went in full bersek and GG, i have won.

[Ealyssa]

When did this happen?
Last I checked, the Grimtotem of Stonetalon were desperate for Alliance support against the Horde, and in 10K Needles, they were actively fighting both Horde and Alliance.

Right when he became warchief. He let them join Orgrimar, that's pretty much the reason why Magata "blessed" his weapon.

They were kicked again after Magata trick.

[Dreknar20]

Indeed. Seeing his opponant suddenly fall down despite inflicting the smallest wound should have set off alarm bells. Instead he leaps onto his opponant and finishes him off, then claims victory.

It was a duel to the death ......... people dont really focus on details when their own life is on the line

Plus Garrosh was not alone in mistaking Magtha. Cairne himself underestimated her. He knew that she was not the most loyal around but he didnt believe she had the balls to really do anything about it. Something she proved wrong

---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 10:27 PM ----------

I don't know like you dude, but when I'm angry and need to make a point at all cost, I use everything I can to make it happen. If Baine is really really angry, scared and all in all emotional (who wouldn't be, just try imagine you in the rebellion, what would you feel like) so he says one thing, even though he knows its not completely true, yet it makes him feel better about this whole thing.

demonizing the enemy while glorifying your own side.
People do that all the time in times of conflict so that people wont feel as bad when taking other people's lives

---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 10:44 PM ----------

The thing about Cairne that he has a lot of wisdom and observation and able to analyze people behaviors more than Thrall.

Yet leading up to the duel Cairne was acting just as hot-headed as a Hellscream would

[kage]

He may have meant betrayed his memory?

[Aquamonkey]

He may have meant betrayed his memory?

Clearly Baine is corrupted by Sha or an Old God. It's the only explanation for such a drastic change in his personality and thinking.

[Deleted]

Blizzard just wants to make Garrosh a bad guy, but not everyone is as blind as fans of OP characters like Superman, Thrall are, some of us still understand what reality is, even if it's just in-game lore.

Yes Sir! Never forget to apply REALITY - ESPECIALLY to a FANTASIE PC GAME!!!

[Zulkhan]

It was a duel to the death ......... people dont really focus on details when their own life is on the line

Plus Garrosh was not alone in mistaking Magtha. Cairne himself underestimated her. He knew that she was not the most loyal around but he didnt believe she had the balls to really do anything about it. Something she proved wrong

Cairne had the right assumption by thinking that she wouldn't never had done anything DIRECTLY, but indeed understimated how coward and vicious Magatha was, not really imaging that she would have arrived to such a thing, which indeed has been a grave understimating by Cairne's part.

But Garrosh's mistake was a bit different, Cairne gave a some kind of misplaced trust indirectly, Garrosh allowed in the first place his axe to be "blessed" by what was a well known opposer of Cairne's rule, and gave up very easily, too easily, to suddenly trust that Magatha wasn't going to do anything "wrong", falling submitted by his desperate need of validation (negated by Thrall and Cairne) that Magatha smartly provided.

demonizing the enemy while glorifying your own side.
People do that all the time in times of conflict so that people wont feel as bad when taking other people's lives

A better explanation if any is necessary, in the case things will remain as such, is that Baine renewed his bitterness he had for that situation (the fact that Garrosh in fact killed his father, regardless of the how) combined with the scary amount of shit Garrosh is actually stirring, which is further sustained by his "I should have killed him long ago".

Yet leading up to the duel Cairne was acting just as hot-headed as a Hellscream would

But he saw right about Garrosh, regardless of his misplaced convinction about Garrosh's involvement in the assassination, he understood that Garrosh had serious problems in terms of behavior, proved to be unrespectful and ruthless.
Thrall was too emotionally involved, he constantly saw Garrosh as the possibility to give to a Hellscream the chance to live like a hero, not die as one, plus indeed he saw in Garrosh a vivid reflection of what Grom was.

Thrall in the end has been blind to truly understand Garrosh, and gave to him a dangerous burden like the leadership of the Horde, but he wasn't absolutely ready for that, he had a lot to learn, but he didn't have the chance to learn anything, and when Thrall made the ill-fated decision to give the power of the Warchief position to him, to a Hellscream that have a liking for the word "power" in his veins, basically sealed Garrosh's fate.

[Dreknar20]

But Garrosh's mistake was a bit different, Cairne gave a some kind of misplaced trust indirectly, Garrosh allowed in the first place his axe to be "blessed" by what was a well known opposer of Cairne's rule, and gave up very easily, too easily, to suddenly trust that Magatha wasn't going to do anything "wrong", falling submitted by his desperate need of validation (negated by Thrall and Cairne) that Magatha smartly provided.

Likewise, Magtha was very clever in how to push Hellscream's buttons, not that its hard to begin with.....
Such as just before the duel, Garrosh had a moment of hesitation, and Magtha basically saying "dont forget this dude just pimp-slapped you"

Plus there wsnt much proof in a ways that marked Magtha as a vile schemar, only a said rumor that her mate (and former ruler of the Grimtotem) may have died "accidently" or somethin like that

---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 11:38 PM ----------

Thrall in the end has been blind to truly understand Garrosh, and gave to him a dangerous burden like the leadership of the Horde, but he wasn't absolutely ready for that, he had a lot to learn, but he didn't have the chance to learn anything

There were apprant moments of learning here and there......
Such as a lesson of leadership - Garrosh learning when he met Baine that being a leader you are not going to be always cheered and loved by everyone always
Lesson of mercy - from that Tauren at Stonetalon
Unfortunatly those lessons didnt stick.............

[RyanEX]

"Baine Bloodhoof: And for what? What did the Horde gain from such actions? Garrosh is a fool, and a betrayer. I should have killed him long ago, when he betrayed my father."

I mean, really? Really?

This is one of those moments I wish I never ever attempted to get into WoW lore. Because of shit like this. The whole dialogue between Vol'Jin and Baine is in the front page, and it's a pretty standard talk of "we are going to fight, oh man, and they are going to fight too, damn". Up till this part.

The thing that grinds my gear is the fact that Garrosh never ever betrayed Cairne. Never. And this is the thing that makes me kinda nerd angry when I see it: people in forums openly hate Garrosh not even because of his actions in MoP, not for Theramore, but because he betrayed Cairne. Betrayed Cairne. Okay, so here is the story. Sit down, story time.



After Garrosh was chosen to be the new Warchief, Cairne became increasingly aware of Garrosh behaviour. He realised that the change in the leadership can cause internal trouble and increased conflict with the Alliance, since Garrosh actions were usually violent and rash. However, Cairne bitterly accepted the change, even tho he didn't find it a good choice.

Things changed when Cairne received a word from Hamuul. The old druid reported, that there were casualities during a peacefull meeting of Cenarion Circle - and the attackers seemed to be sent by Garrosh. Little did Hamuul know, that the attack was set up by Twilight Hammer, and in the effort to undermine the Horde, the killers made sure it seemed like it was Garroshes assault. Cairne didn't know this fact, but assuming that Hamuuls version was true, he decided to do what he found the only way out: "Mak'Gora". A duel between Garrosh and Cairne to resolve the leadership problem.

Garrosh found it amusing that Cairne challanged him, since he didn't really realise for what reason. Feeling that rising the stakes will most likely scare the old Tauren, he said the duel will be to death - and to his suprise, Cairne accepted.

For the duel both warriors had to wear the traditional armor (basically no armor at all), and use the weapon of their choice, blessed by a shaman before the fight. Garroshes Gorehowl was blessed by Magatha Grimtotem, a grim figure in Tauren society, who tried to undermine Cairnes leadership many times before.

During the duel, Garrosh was suprised, and a bit scared, by Cairnes power and might. For the most part, he had to back off, fending himself from the attacks of Cairnes runespear. In the corner, he decided to use a dangerous, reckless move - he swung his axe with all his might, leaving himself exposed after the attack. It worked - Cairnes weapon was shattered to pieces, and his chest was wounded. However, the attack seemed to have a weird resoult, when Cairne collapsed on his knees after getting a small cut in the chest. Not thinking for a long time, Garrosh swung again, killing Cairne.

The truth was, Magatha Grimtotem, while blessing Garroshes weapon, secretly poisoned it with a mixture that disabled him after stuck. Her plan was to use Garrosh as a pawn in taking Thunder Bluff for herself - and the plan somehow worked. Cairne was dead, and Magatha attacked Thunder Bluff, believing Garrosh, knowing she helped him survive the duel, will help her.

Garrosh was not amused. Magathas poison took away his chance for a true victory or death on the ring, and made his kill unhonorable. Magatha was suprised when Garrosh replied her will all his hate, saying she is on her own now. Magathas attack was thus a failure, since Cairnes son, Baine, managed to prepare defences and push Magatha and her Grimtotem out of the Thunder Bluff.

After the events, Garrosh, alongside with Thrall, mourned Cairnes death, believing such a warrior did not deserve a death by poison. He approached Baine, trying to find any way to mend the broken fences, and feeling that he should prepare himself for another Mak'Gora. Baine, tho, blamed Magatha for the entire event, and pledged his loyality to Garrosh. Garrosh gladly accepted, suprised by young Taurens restrain and wisdom.



Story is over.

"Baine Bloodhoof: And for what? What did the Horde gain from such actions? Garrosh is a fool, and a betrayer. I should have killed him long ago, when he betrayed my father."

This one quote makes the whole point of the duel between Garrosh and Cairne completly pointless. Moreover, it absolutely retcons both the duels outcome, and Baines reaction. The word "betrayal" is extremly improper here. Draw your own conclusions, basing on the story from the "Shattering" novel.

Young and wise Tauren, previously sadly accepting the fact, that it was his father who requested the duel, and Magatha who staged his death, now believes Garrosh is the only one to blame. Baine, who was the one who threw away the nonsensical endless circle of vengeance, and decided another Mak'Gora would only make things even worse - now openly says he should have killed him back then, when ashamed Garrosh in pathetic manner tried to apologise for the loss that couldnt be undone.

Sorry for the rant, if you find it too long. But this one thing makes me cringe every time I see it. Hatred towards Garrosh based on this particular event. And seeing how Blizzard made Baine say those words, it seems I was the one who was wrong. Nothing is forbidden, everything can be retconned.

It's not a retcon so much as a distorted PoV. In Baine's eyes Garrosh betrayed his father, just like in the eyes of the goblins in the Scroll short, the Alliance are jerks who enslaved the orcs for no reason.

[Deleted]

Hm, why would Garrosh allow a Grimtotem to bless his weapon if Grimtotems were always enemies of Horde Taurens?

[Dreknar20]

Hm, why would Garrosh allow a Grimtotem to bless his weapon if Grimtotems were always enemies of Horde Taurens?

because they werent that much of enemies back then, they just never officially joined the Horde

Grimtotem were living side by side the other Tauren in Thunderbluff pre-Cata. They even had a degree of influence as it was Grimtotem support that contributed to the Forsaken admission into the Horde

[Thimagryn]

It's not a retcon so much as a distorted PoV. In Baine's eyes Garrosh betrayed his father, just like in the eyes of the goblins in the Scroll short, the Alliance are jerks who enslaved the orcs for no reason.

Except it's clearly explained in the Shattering novel that in Baine's eyes, the betrayer was Magatha, not Garrosh. It doesn't put Garrosh off the hook for having killed his father, but he acknowledges where the blame of murder lies.

[Deleted]

We need our hero Red Shirt guy (:

Jokes asside i hope they see the error and fix it.. There are a lot of teams involved someone not completly into the lore migth have added the erroneous text and it wasnt re-checked..

Baine always striked me as being a very reasonable character i dont see him losing prespective on the figth that happened between garrosh and his father and lose himself to somthing as pitifull as revenge..

---------- Post added 2013-06-22 at 01:04 AM ----------

This thread would probably be of more use on the official WoW forums, where the devs can see it.

Blizz often states they follow sites like MMo very often since they have good input to what players think..

[Velshin]

Except it's clearly explained in the Shattering novel that in Baine's eyes, the betrayer was Magatha, not Garrosh. It doesn't put Garrosh off the hook for having killed his father, but he acknowledges where the blame of murder lies.

Again I will explain this:

Baine said Garrosh betrayer of his father not because of Cairne death because that was obviously cleared and known that the poison of Gorehowl was Magatha's fault.

The main reason he said that it's because Garrosh didn't take action against Magatha even though she was the one who robbed Garrosh from his honorable duel victory...he did nothing at all just a message letter and few insults.

[Thimagryn]

And that is called betraying his father? I find that a very loose connection. It's out of Baine's character to reach to such conclusions anyhow, since it was in his own power that he could have sought revenge for the Grimtotems but didn't. I provided the quotes from the novel, and whether Garrosh did anything was irrelevant because his lack of involvement hardly constitutes as betrayal. It would have only been relevant if Garrosh supported the Grimtotems after Cairne's death.

The biggest point is that what Baine is saying now is different from what was said before. Despite whatever evidence is brought up, Baine did not see Garrosh as a betrayer. The whole story of the Shattering shows how he views Garrosh. These new quotes from Baine essentially ignores everything that was said in the Shattering.

[Deleted]

because they werent that much of enemies back then, they just never officially joined the Horde

Grimtotem were living side by side the other Tauren in Thunderbluff pre-Cata. They even had a degree of influence as it was Grimtotem support that contributed to the Forsaken admission into the Horde

Strange, I remember I was killing Grimtotems in BC. Even in starting zone, weren't they the one doing something wrong with wells? Maybe I am wrong, long time ago.

[Velshin]

And that is called betraying his father? I find that a very loose connection. It's out of Baine's character to reach to such conclusions anyhow, since it was in his own power that he could have sought revenge for the Grimtotems but didn't. I provided the quotes from the novel, and whether Garrosh did anything was irrelevant because his lack of involvement hardly constitutes as betrayal. It would have only been relevant if Garrosh supported the Grimtotems after Cairne's death.

It's Betraying because back then Baine trusted Garrosh to lead the Horde to a better path after Cairne death. So both recent Garrosh craziness and racisim + not taking action against Magatha because he is the warchief he should be responsible for taking action against her = Baine current conclusion.