SoO Normal - "Do-able" without SoO LFR gear?

[Zairn]

I certainly never stepped foot into the ToT LFR when clearing ToT normal, it was just too minor of an upgrade. I can't imagine doing SoO LFR to get gear either.

In general, the is no real point. The small ilvl boost for casual guilds isn't what they need to down bosses (They need to work on executing the mechanics better), normal guilds it BARELY is an upgrade, if at all, and for hardcore progression you flat out have better gear already, with the exception maybe being set bonuses or trinkets.

[Sandwrong]

Honestly, the question should be "Should we be working on Flex mode before we work on normal mode each week?"

[clevin]

I certainly never stepped foot into the ToT LFR when clearing ToT normal, it was just too minor of an upgrade. I can't imagine doing SoO LFR to get gear either.

In general, the is no real point. The small ilvl boost for casual guilds isn't what they need to down bosses (They need to work on executing the mechanics better), normal guilds it BARELY is an upgrade, if at all, and for hardcore progression you flat out have better gear already, with the exception maybe being set bonuses or trinkets.

This is true if you have ToT normal gear or the equivalent so that you're around 520. But SoO LFR will be a big upgrade if you're in most ToT LFR gear. The thing is, the gear in a given difficulty is a substantial upgrade from the same difficulty of the previous tier, but it's never going to be a substantial upgrade from the higher difficulties of the prior tier. So T16 LFR will be a step up from T15 LFR but not really from T15 normals. The people doing LFRs in SoO are going to be a) those only doing LFR for whatever reason, b) people doing LFR to catch up (they didn't clear or farm normals so they're in the 515 range), c) people farming VP/wanting a specific piece, etc

[Normie]

The reason I asked this question is that my group want to do 10-man Normal as if LFR never existed, and we could have some effort with gearing and the real difficulty without help of LFR gear. Besides that, doing Garrosh in LFR is absolutely ridiculous and breaks the mood and the excitment of a end-xpac boss.

Bear in mind if you progress quickly in normal you'll probably kill the bosses there before they're even available in LFR (probably 7 weeks before the last wing is released? if they go _ 1 2 _ 3 _ 4).

You definitely do not need LFR gear. However it might be the most convenient source of filler gear, depending on what if any valor gear or other non-raid gear there is available.

[kamuimac]

This is true if you have ToT normal gear or the equivalent so that you're around 520. But SoO LFR will be a big upgrade if you're in most ToT LFR gear. The thing is, the gear in a given difficulty is a substantial upgrade from the same difficulty of the previous tier, but it's never going to be a substantial upgrade from the higher difficulties of the prior tier. So T16 LFR will be a step up from T15 LFR but not really from T15 normals. The people doing LFRs in SoO are going to be a) those only doing LFR for whatever reason, b) people doing LFR to catch up (they didn't clear or farm normals so they're in the 515 range), c) people farming VP/wanting a specific piece, etc

this step up wont be as big as u think for people who raid only lfr and not touching any normals if they run it every week they will easily be around 515/520 itlv when 5.4 hits with how cheap item upgrades are and vp gear/nalak/ondasta gear which they can ipgrade to 530 (im not speakign about peopel who run it liek 1 or 2 times only those who will have like 10-15 clears)

[Deleted]

Basically I would say, that you are good to go, if you have ToT normal gear. Just like it has always been.
Maybe you won't rush through it in the first week, like the people in ToT heroic gear will (like we always did), but I guess that shouldn't be a problem, as the SoO normal stuff is the content that you actually aim for.

There won't be any need to grind LFR if you want to start doing nonheroic bosses, just like nobody is forced to grind normal for several weeks before he can do his first promising attempts on heroic bosses. Of course it might help you to do lfr besides progressing in normal mode, just like it benefits heroic guilds to farm the normal bosses to have a easier life on certain heroic bosses.

[Kurgosh]

Your best bet for preparation is to get 13/13H on farm asap so you will have full 549 gear by the time SoO releases

That's your best preparation if your goal for next tier is to clear normal mode in 1 or at most 2 weeks, then get on to heroics. For guilds that focus on normal mode progression like the OP asked, normal mode ToT gear should be more than adequate to get started. It might not get them through the end bosses, but by the time they reach the end bosses, they'll have a decent amount of normal mode gear from SoO. Normal mode progression can be done without LFR gear, but avoiding it is going to hamper your progression (despite Blizzard's repeated protests that normal mode raiders shouldn't ever have to do LFR, they keep putting tier sets and questline drops in LFR). Still, if the OP's guild is fine with limiting their own gearing options, that's their call to make.

So T16 LFR will be a step up from T15 LFR but not really from T15 normals.

That's going to be highly variable by class and spec. Some classes and specs have really crap tier set bonuses in T15. LFR tier 16 would be a huge benefit to them. Same is true to a lesser extent for weapons.

[Terridon]

Horridon assumed a brain. It was easily doable in 490~ ilvl, probably lower. I tanked it with a 470 ilvl alt without problems, though the rest of the group was probably closer to 495 at that point.

The problem with horridon was that the fight was too long. It should have been 2 gates in normal. Having a 12 minute fight as second boss is asking for troubles.

As far as i recall it, 4 guilds managed to get horridon down with an average of 490 ilvl :P
Of course some of it is because those getting him down fast are better geared, but still.

Gear does matter a lot. One being low geared doesn't matter. The entire raid makes it rather unforgiving.

to OP:
Don't you raid tot now or what, since you ask?

We didn't raid the previous tier and had some trouble getting started in tot. When we got to those good 500 ilvl it improved a lot, getting 1 new boss down pr week on average.
Sounds like a nice idea not doing lfr at all, but people will use more time understanding each fight and such.
Onlyreal annoying thing with that approach is you're getting behind on legendary line, compared to lfr-people.

[MrExcelion]

I think overtuning normals has been a concern to Blizzard when looking back and T14 and T15, and they might keep that in mind when designing T16. Then again, we have ilvl upgrades available from the start and another difficulty setting that's intended to help guilds progress through Normal. They just need to be extra careful about overtuning early bosses (ie: Garalon, Horridon) and make the boss more of a linear progression throughout the instance. It seems they won't be as rushed during testing this time around at least.

[Sparkidy]

Without having entered a normal raid I have ilvl 530 (and could have 532 but prefer to keep my awesome 4p)

Off topic, but could you link armory? I worked it out awhile back that the max you could get without normal raiding was about ilvl 528 with full upgrades in every slot. And since you say you've got 4-piece, I find that even harder to believe with 2 pieces of 502 dragging you down. Actually that didn't factor in a 608 cloak...guess that's what's doing it.

I don't really have a lot to add that hasn't been said already - it'll be clearable without lfr, for sure. But that of course depends on the ilvl your team is going into it with.

[Terridon]

Off topic, but could you link armory? I worked it out awhile back that the max you could get without normal raiding was about ilvl 528 with full upgrades in every slot. And since you say you've got 4-piece, I find that even harder to believe with 2 pieces of 502 dragging you down. Actually that didn't factor in a 608 cloak...guess that's what's doing it.

I don't really have a lot to add that hasn't been said already - it'll be clearable without lfr, for sure. But that of course depends on the ilvl your team is going into it with.

The HC scenarios with 516 ilvl gear helps on improving the ilvl too.

[pld]

As far as i recall it, 4 guilds managed to get horridon down with an average of 490 ilvl :P
Of course some of it is because those getting him down fast are better geared, but still.

Gear does matter a lot. One being low geared doesn't matter. The entire raid makes it rather unforgiving.

to OP:
Don't you raid tot now or what, since you ask?

We didn't raid the previous tier and had some trouble getting started in tot. When we got to those good 500 ilvl it improved a lot, getting 1 new boss down pr week on average.
Sounds like a nice idea not doing lfr at all, but people will use more time understanding each fight and such.
Onlyreal annoying thing with that approach is you're getting behind on legendary line, compared to lfr-people.

Where did you get that statistic? Our guild was ~490 ilvl when we downed Horridon (pre-nerf). We're a "heroic" guild now, but at the start of ToT, we only had 16/16N and 2/16H (with those 2 heroic kills coming 2-3 weeks before ToT) so we definitely weren't steamrolling normals.

Taking a look at our WP page, our guild got about 2 bosses (in normal) down per week with Lei-Shen taking about 3 weeks. I would say that's roughly what a 12/12N guild should be expecting when SoO comes out.

I doubt SoO LFR will be necessary, but for those who may have 502 or 522 pieces, it definitely wouldn't hurt. I generally try to avoid LFR in the first few weeks after launch, but I know some of our members did ToT-LFR at launch with the intention of upgrading their lower IL pieces.