5.4, hunters in PvE - concerns, etc.

[Kalcheus]

You're getting explosive shot and explosive trap mixed up. Plus explosive trap isn't even used much right now. The top hunters on fights like tortos use black arrow on cd and ignore exp trap.

No, I'm not getting them mixed up. And I can't even imagine how you read it that way considering I wrote "was potentially a rotational shot when removed from the CD with Black Arrow"

[Deleted]

You're getting explosive shot and explosive trap mixed up. Plus explosive trap isn't even used much right now. The top hunters on fights like tortos use black arrow on cd and ignore exp trap.

You're getting patches on the PTR mixed up.
Explosive Trap has been unlinked from Black Arrow so it became a rotational ability. So on single targets you want to drop Explosive Trap on cooldown because it's free and does slightly more damage than an Arcane Shot (IIRC).

[Kalcheus]

You're getting patches on the PTR mixed up.
Explosive Trap has been unlinked from Black Arrow so it became a rotational ability. So on single targets you want to drop Explosive Trap on cooldown because it's free and does slightly more damage than an Arcane Shot (IIRC).

Even after the nerf?

[Kurgosh]

Can you see how these issues in pvp do need to get addressed which sadly does affect pve as well.

Honestly, no. If hunters are too good in PVP (for which I've seen no evidence, especially given the perennial dominance of mages, rogues, priest and locks), then fix PVP. But we were middle of the pack in PVE with extremely limited utility even -before- this latest set of announced nerfs. We're going to be miserably underpowered with no utility in PVE, and no raid leader with an option will include us.

But let's get to your list of complaints. My big question is, so what? We're mobile and can shoot bad players a lot, and have some useful CC (with a much higher skill cap than most CCs). We were, before the nerf bat came out, actually good in PVP, but that's an extreme rarity for hunters. We're never allowed to be good at PVP, and the instant whining from the classes that have always been good at PVP got us nerfed almost immediately. Why is it so bad if hunters are good at PVP for a change? Why is that not allowed, but mages and rogues are always, every season, on top of the PVP world. And locks and priests usually too. Other classes are allowed to rotate to the top and join the big four at times. There have been seasons where warriors were good, and druids were good, and shamans were good. Why aren't hunters allowed to get in on that every once in a while?

[Deleted]

Just amazing, Now we loose 30% of explosive trap! We already are far behind cleave classes on aoe.

They clearly do not know how to fix this class. nerf after nerf.

and yes, i know they unlinked it from black arrow, but what is the point of explosive shot now? it already did so little - now 30% less.
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Gonna hang up!

[Poppincaps]

Only because hunters are probably the hardest class to design properly.

1) pets are not easy to design and balance around, especially when such a large portion of your dps is single target and melee only. Blink strike and stampede only served to further the problem.

2) you have all the benefits of being a ranged class without any of the drawbacks. Giving hunters AotF baseline was a horrible decision seeing how the only thing keeping you from never standing still was cobra/ss. Since movement is now a non factor for hunters and you are a ranged class, the only way to keep you from absolutely dominating is to make cleaving/multi-dotting your weakness.

3) you only have one cast time ability in cobra/ss ,unless you're mm of course, which leads to a lot of damage coming very rapidly. Hunters probably have the best 5 second burst in the game that doesn't have a positional requirement, doesn't require melee range and is all instant. And you have it all the time, the only thing you need for it is focus.

Overall, Hunters are probably the easiest class to make accidentally op and as such have been relegated to being average for the most part, in pve that is.

Now comes why you're so op in arenas.

1) Hunters are nearly impossible to counter. Melee can be counted by kiting. If you're a ranged class you can hit them when they can't hit you. Casters can be countered by interrupts. They need to cast to do damage. (Hint, why are frost mages so strong). You can't kite a hunter, and you can't interrupt them. If you can hit him, he can hit you.

2) What previously kept them in check was minimum range. Minimum range acted as sort of an interrupt but it didn't cripple them since they had few cast time spells and couldn't be locked out.

3) movement has no effect on hunters. They can literally chase you all match without losing any damage.

4) There is no smart positional play required for a hunter to unload on you. Casters need to be away from melee and ideally near LoS so they can't easily be CCed halfway through their cast. The only cast time hunters have is the one ability that does minimal damage. Again, previously held in check by minimum range and needing to activate Fox to be able to regen focus.

5) since hunters are balanced around no cleave/multi dot they are very front loaded.

To sum it up, you hit fast, you hit from anywhere, you can't be kited, you can't be interrupted, you can't be CCed while casting since you have no casts, you can't be shut down through minimum range, you're 100% mobile.

Can you see how these issues in pvp do need to get addressed which sadly does affect pve as well.

I don't mean to insult you, but I think this is more of a learn to play issue. You can LoS a hunter, you can EASILY counter Stampede and their pet with fears and roots. You can also disarm a hunter and their CC can be countered pretty well if the team you're playing against knows how to stand on traps for their healer. Silencing Shot is pretty OP no doubt, but I'm tired of people saying hunters are extremely OP, when in fact they are pretty easy to counter if you know how.

[Tehstool]

Yep, more compensation announced today. Explosive trap nerfed by 30%, because our AoE was just too good. I guess maybe compared to enhance shammies?

If the nerf makes us not want to use explosive trap single target, then it was a good nerf.

[bewsh]

Yes different abilities for pvp and pve might work for some issues. How do you solve the issues i outlined above with such an approach though? Again, hunters can't be interrupted, have almost all instants, don't have min range anymore and have unlimited mobility. Should steady/cobra be able to be interrupted and lock hunters out from using their abilities? Should abilities other than steady/cobra have a cast time? Should min range be brought back for pvp only? Should steady/cobra not be able to be cast while moving in pvp?

It's easy to just echo the sentiment that abilities need just have different pvp/pve versions and everything would be fixed. You have to think about that though. The core of the problem is with the very design of the class. Unless you change how hunters play in pvp and pve completely you can't just have different versions of spells.

At what point does a hunter not even play like a hunter anymore?

Hunters can be still slowed, dazed, stunned, rooted, disarmed, feared, slept, disoriented, etc. Pets can be CC'd. We can be locked down as efficiently as other classes even if we're not susceptible to a fraction of the the available CC options. At some point you're defensives will be on CD and readiness will be on CD and you can what.... arcane shot?

Historically, hunters have never been OP in PvP, least of all rated PvP and have always has the lowest representation of any class, season after season. The problem is not with our toolkit, or design, but design changes that occurred this expansion.

[Deleted]

If the nerf makes us not want to use explosive trap single target, then it was a good nerf.

maybe buff other shots, hunters are not top dps anyway!

[Hayro1]

Even after the nerf?

The nerf was solely so you wouldn't use it for ST. Pretty sure it was barely worth it (few hundred?) before the nerf.

[Tehstool]

maybe buff other shots, hunters are not top dps anyway!

They haven't started doing number adjustments yet. They probably will.

[Kalcheus]

They haven't started doing number adjustments yet. They probably will.

I'm curious what they'll do now tho to buff aoe.

[lolo855]

don't worry guy, GC will fix us when 6.0 comes out, and if doesn't, we'll get a free legendary like poor UP rogue's. And if that doesn't happen np 7.0 isn't so far away to fix us !

[Kurgosh]

The hunter nerf/buff cycle is ridiculous. We start of middle of the pack, get nerfed even lower because the very best hunters might out-perform some average mages or warlocks (especially in PVP), then fall all the way to the basement due to poor scaling (excepting only orphan specs like arms and sub, but we have one of those too), and then finally, a few months after progression and PVP rankings have been determined, we get buffed back to the middle of the pack. Just in time for the process to repeat for the next tier or season.

[Paulosio]

Just amazing, Now we loose 30% of explosive trap! We already are far behind cleave classes on aoe.

They clearly do not know how to fix this class. nerf after nerf.

and yes, i know they unlinked it from black arrow, but what is the point of explosive shot now? it already did so little - now 30% less.
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Gonna hang up!

I like the change to explosive trap.... Was horrible trying to put traps down before a pull and then being locked out of black arrow. You will get the lock and load procs that explosive trap used to grant by having black arrow and explosive up at the same time.

[zenyatta]

So, they're going to buff us to compensate for the Readiness nerf... by nerfing Explosive Trap. Okie dokie.

[Danshot]

at least explosive trap wont be like a bastard version of rain of fire for locks. nerfs suck, but it was a QoL improvement

[Deleted]

I didn't know that the patch is going live tomorrow. Oh wait, it isn't. Just relax, 8-10 weeks left on PTR

[Redpanda]

we need to keep pressure on blizz . Im dreading logging on to ptr tomorow its going to feel painful now that the readiness nerf is in

[Paulosio]

Why not?
We can target switch to the spirits faster than most other classes and do a nice amount of multi-dot and cleave damage onto all bosses. Granted it's nothing like a Demonology Warlock with Lei-Shen's trinket, but one quick look at the logs should clearly show that they are the ones being broken.

Damage of a hunter multishotting and explosive trapping on 2-3 targets is nothing compared to a fire mage, elemental shammy, lock, boomkin, warrior etc. etc.... Not even close.