Warcraft: The Rules of War?

[Kharli]

Whew! Your Alliance fanboy musk is really stinking up with this quote of yours. The Alliance didn't win at Taurajo because they "were better than the Horde on the battlefield." Read the questline, dude: they waited for the warriors and hunters to leave and attacked the town when its defenses were gone. That stinks more of cowardice than dropping a bomb on someone's military forces; avoiding the enemy's strong forces so you can hit a largely undefended target...

Prio quest.
Our policy of conscripting non-violent criminals from the Stormwind Stockades has come back to haunt us, <name>. Some of my less-scrupulous soldiers broke ranks after our victory in Taurajo and are looting the remains of the city.

This is a breakdown in discipline. Worse, the desecration of their homes only spurs the enemy to fight harder when our ultimate goal should be peace.

Take these manacles and bring the Taurajo looters to justice. Speak to them first, but you may need force to subdue them.

Tell me what happened at Taurajo.

Ah yes, our assault on the Horde town of Taurajo. I struggled with the implications of the decision.

Taurajo was admittedly what you might call a 'soft target,' primarily a hunters' camp. Still, it had been used to recruit, equip, and train Horde infantry for many years.

When our scouts reported that Taurajo's most dangerous units were out on the hunt, we had to act quickly.

We sacked the town?

<Hawthorne wrinkles his brow.>

I would prefer not to use the term 'sacked,' but yes, the attack went off flawlessly. We removed Taurajo from the equation, confiscated its arms, and destroyed its smithing facilities. The assault gave our forces considerable breathing room and knocked the enemy off balance.

Nonetheless, during the assault, I instructed my men to leave a gap open in our lines...

Why did you do that?

Taurajo had a significant civilian population. I wanted to ensure that they could escape the fighting, and many did, finding refuge in the north.

There are some, even in Alliance High Command, who argued that I let an opportunity slip away. That I should've taken hostages. But I don't see the value in those sort of terror-tactics.

Hear me out, ....: I want this war to end someday. It won't ever stop if we butcher or imprison civilians.

I just pray that there are those on the other side who see things as I do.

on the horde side..

I am convinced the Alliance is using spies to scout the field and pass along information. They knew to strike at Taurajo while the hunters were afield. And they countered every one of Gar'dul's moves like he was an open book.

Well <name>, I for one will not be outplayed. Not here. We will win the battle for intelligence.

Even now I hear reports of Alliance operatives slinking around in the shadows, especially here, outside these very walls. Kill them and bring me back something of use.

This operative had orders to secure the roadways between the Alliance command and Fort Triumph. General Hawthorne is on the move.

<Bloodhilt crumples the documents in his fist.>

It's HIM, <name>! Hawthorne - I spit the name - he is the one who ordered the assault on Taurajo! Now we know when and where to strike him down. Quickly, follow the road north of the Battlescar and meet up with my assassin Karthog. CRUSH Hawthorne and string his body up along the road!

Everything and anything that is Alliance controlled is a valid target. Period.

IF SO then Camp Taurajo is also a valid target as it' was controled by the horde at the time.

[Aquamonkey]

Why aren't people outraged that the gnomes radiation-bombed their capital while their citizens were still inside?

[Simulacrum]

The problem with weapons like the mana bomb isn't so much that they kill lots of people, as it is that there's either no way to protect yourself from them, or no reliable way of doing so. Which means that all of a sudden it becomes rational for everyone to blow each other up with these weapons as fast as possible - if you don't do it to them, they'll do it to you.

That's assuming that the mana bomb is a WMD; I don't actually know if it can be defended against or not.

The WoW universe isn't exactly populated with rational actors, though, so... who knows how stuff will turn out over there. I mean, Deathwing was basically a nearly indestructible flying nuclear bomber with unlimited nukes, and he seemed content to let everyone know that he was back, then sit in place waiting for them to come kill him.

[Dreknar20]

IF SO then Camp Taurajo is also a valid target as it' was controled by the horde at the time.

because I said it was not?

[Kharli]

The problem with weapons like the mana bomb isn't so much that they kill lots of people, as it is that there's either no way to protect yourself from them, or no reliable way of doing so. Which means that all of a sudden it becomes rational for everyone to blow each other up with these weapons as fast as possible - if you don't do it to them, they'll do it to you.

That's assuming that the mana bomb is a WMD; I don't actually know if it can be defended against or not.

The WoW universe isn't exactly populated with rational actors, though, so... who knows how stuff will turn out over there. I mean, Deathwing was basically a nearly indestructible flying nuclear bomber with unlimited nukes, and he seemed content to let everyone know that he was back, then sit in place waiting for them to come kill him.

Rhonin the Red(aka Arch mage Of Dalaran) was annihilated by the Manabomb, he went "poof" and he was in Jaina's tower which I might add was WARDED against magic.. yeh.. and take a look.


vs


yes.. it's a WMD however not labed as such in the Warcraft universe because, the term dont exist...

and as you pointed out death wing flew around the world going:HAHHAHAHAH come get me idiots. while he could have just annihilated Both Stormwind and Orgrimmar along with any other citys if he so damn wished to especially costal city's. (Stormwind, orgrimmar, Teldrasil(giant tree ))

[Aquamonkey]

Rhonin the Red(aka Arch mage Of Dalaran) was annihilated by the Manabomb, he went "poof" and he was in Jaina's tower which I might add was WARDED against magic.. yeh.. and take a look.

--snip--

yes.. it's a WMD however not labed as such in the Warcraft universe because, the term dont exist...

and as you pointed out death wing flew around the world going:HAHHAHAHAH come get me idiots. while he could have just annihilated Both Stormwind and Orgrimmar along with any other citys if he so damn wished to especially costal city's. (Stormwind, orgrimmar, Teldrasil(giant tree ))

Rhonin drew in the blast to concentrate it on his location.

[Dreknar20]

The problem with weapons like the mana bomb isn't so much that they kill lots of people, as it is that there's either no way to protect yourself from them, or no reliable way of doing so.

idk, if you tell a general that you have a weapon that will always succeed and can never be deflected or defended against, then they would all smile

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yes.. it's a WMD however not labed as such in the Warcraft universe because, the term dont exist...

Weapon of Mass Destruction...........the whole point of war is to cause as much death/destruction upon the enemy

[Faroth]

Them fighting was very much needed.
They served to push the Alliance into the center of the city, and draw off Alliance forces while other teams disabled Alliance air defense and saved their inside man.
Without it the whole dropping of the bomb wouldnt be possible

You're welcome to defend, justify, and praise Garrosh and his tyrannical madness all you like, but when an entire planet disagrees with you, they aren't the ones deemed insane. The Alliance villify him, the trolls didn't support what he did, the tauren were outright against it, but those two groups went along out of fear of being eradicated through the same genocide Garrosh later planned for the night elves.

If you're dropping a bomb that will eradicate the smallest form of life throughout the entire area, you don't need to tightly pack them into the center of the city. Simply the appearance of a siege would have kept the Alliance in the walls preparing for the assault.

Even those inside the Horde felt he needlessly sent his warriors in to die with no intention of battle. It was all just a stage show. I don't recall anything about sabotaging air defenses. They didn't have planes at the ready. At best, they had mages which were just as capable of throwing spells at the ship without the attack as they were with it.

Their inside man wasn't even necessary to the bomb. His entire purpose was bringing down the defenses that kept them from breaching the gates so Garrosh could make a show of "invading" Theramore when he had no intention of taking it.

I just wonder how much Garrosh's defenders would be praising him if he had eradicated Thunder Bluff or Echo Isles with one of his super weapons due to their defiance of his supreme rule. Because the guy's been a stone's throw away from doing it had they not been careful.

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Weapon of Mass Destruction...........the whole point of war is to cause as much death/destruction upon the enemy

Difference of ideologies. Most of the races in Azeroth have a notion of honor. Have you not paid attention to the entire story of the orcs? Death and bloodlust for the sake of blood isn't their idea of a good thing.

For that matter, your notion is wrong. The point of war has nothing to do with causing as much death and destruction as possible.

If it were, half of Earth would no longer support life because every army throughout history would have burned their enemies cities, razed their structures to the ground, and salted the earth to ensure nothing could grow.

War is not waged for the sole purpose of slaughter and the joy of death. It's waged for numerous purposes and that is not inherently and exclusively connected to "as much death and destruction as possible."

In some cases, an army may want as little death as possible so they have a source of forced labor afterwards.

[Aquamonkey]

I just wonder how much Garrosh's defenders would be praising him if he had eradicated Thunder Bluff or Echo Isles with one of his super weapons due to their defiance of his supreme rule. Because the guy's been a stone's throw away from doing it had they not been careful.

The gnomes did this to their own people. Where is the outcry?

[Faroth]

The gnomes did this to their own people. Where is the outcry?

An instance dedicated to storming the city and killing the gnome responsible. It just isn't large scale enough to be Siege of Gnomeregan because the Horde have no reason to care.

Also, not the same thing. The gnomes did not turn a weapon against their own people with the intent of silencing opposition to the High Tinker. It was done to stop the troggs and went horribly wrong thanks to the aforementioned treacherous gnome.

[Sandrox]

The gnomes did this to their own people. Where is the outcry?

The guy who did it betrayed them, and is the boss of Gnomeregan?

[Dreknar20]

Even those inside the Horde felt he needlessly sent his warriors in to die with no intention of battle. .

"We threw ourselves at the gates, which our friend Thalen Songeweaver weakend for us - and his loyalty was rewarded. While the Alliance focused on us, a small team infiltrated Theramore. Their accomplishments were twofold - they rescued Thalen and were able to cripple the Alliance ariel defenses. And now - we shall wait no longer."

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Death and bloodlust for the sake of blood isn't their idea of a good thing.

No one ever has gone to war for the sole reason of "why the hell not"

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War is not waged for the sole purpose of slaughter and the joy of death. It's waged for numerous purposes and that is not inherently and exclusively connected to "as much death and destruction as possible."

Maybe because not everyone fights to the absolute last man last ounce of strength
Look at Germany for doing so, after WW2 they were effectivly not even a country just a god dam black hole in the center of Europe

[Aquamonkey]

The guy who did it betrayed them, and is the boss of Gnomeregan?

Gelbin Mekkatorque irradiated the city and is still their leader.

[Faroth]

[QUOTE=Dreknar20;21668878]"We threw ourselves at the gates, which our friend Thalen Songeweaver weakend for us - and his loyalty was rewarded. While the Alliance focused on us, a small team infiltrated Theramore. Their accomplishments were twofold - they rescued Thalen and were able to cripple the Alliance ariel defenses. And now - we shall wait no longer."

I stand corrected on the defenses. I still don't recall what defenses they crippled, but if he says that was the purpose they musta done SOMETHING to that effect.

No one ever has gone to war for the sole reason of "why the hell not"

True, it's for conquest. To destroy all that lay before him by any means necessary to conquer all of Kalimdor, if not Azeroth.

[Dreknar20]

[QUOTE=Faroth;21668959]

I stand corrected on the defenses. I still don't recall what defenses they crippled, but if he says that was the purpose they musta done SOMETHING to that effect.

later in book Jaina walks by slain gryphons, some soldier reports that the gryphon roosts or whatever took the brunt of damage
In the in-game scenario you fight and kill the flight master

[Faroth]

Gelbin Mekkatorque irradiated the city and is still their leader.

In a desperate attempt to kill the troggs, their ruler, on the advice of advisor Mekgineer Thermaplugg, detonated a radiation bomb in its halls, but only succeeded in corrupting whatever gnomes that remained - and empowering the victorious troggs

Thermaplugg concocted the plan, laid it out, then convinced Mekkatorque they had a last ditch effort to use it in the sealed tunnels. Afterwards, he convinced Mekkatorque to open the vents to supposedly air out the radiation which actually released it into the city itself.

Thermaplugg is at fault for listening to an adviser, but he didn't concoct a plan to wipe out his people because they questioned his authority. Afterwards, he's been working to rescue survivors in Gnomeregan and then reclaim the city (not that Blizz went so far as to actually give the gnomes back any of the city. They just sit out in the snow now!)

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later in book Jaina walks by slain gryphons, some soldier reports that the gryphon roosts or whatever took the brunt of damage
In the in-game scenario you fight and kill the flight master

Ahhhh, I was thinking cannons or things like that. I'm being too technological in thinking.


The more I think of it, though, the more I'd have to ask you this:

If Garrosh is justified in Theramore, taking any means necessary to destroy all that stand before him in pursuit of conquest, would that justification then apply that the Burning Legion are not wrong either? Garrosh's pursuit and tactics are essentially identical to those of the Legion.

[Arrashi]

I dont really understand how mana bomb was cowardly attack.
This on the other hand....

[Sett]

I'm mainly upset how it's going to get swept under the rug for things. The Alliance and Horde becoming buddies probably for saving world from XYZ evil forces. Pulling a move like this would scar a society and likely trigger bigger panic. The game's not portraying that too well. At least the PTSD Jaina's giving off makes her a 'crazy bitch' for wanting any sort of retribution. Blegh.


tl;dr Great move by Garrosh. However Blizzard isn't finishing ties or lingering issues with it like a lot of other good lore bits. I want to see or know about what happened to the people that went to Taranis. What if some of the Horde intercepted them and slaughtered the bunch? The only reason we don't have many civilian deaths is thanks to Baine's warning. Not because Garrosh had a soft heart.

[Solidsteel]

It was a valid target.

Nuking it instead of fighting? Cowardly act indeed. Just as the USA nuked the Japaneese cause they were too sissy to attack conventionally..

I hope this was a joke, the US decimated Japan's naval fleet and air force long before the use of the atomic bombs.

[Dreknar20]

If Garrosh is justified in Theramore, taking any means necessary to destroy all that stand before him in pursuit of conquest, would that justification then apply that the Burning Legion are not wrong either? Garrosh's pursuit and tactics are essentially identical to those of the Legion.

Not saying its completely justified, but Im also saying it wasent some evil horrific act either

I mean war isnt the same as a soccer game. Its a matter of life and death. What are you willing to do to stay alive, to stave off the humiliation and disgrace of defeat.