Huge Hunter changes incoming

[aarjun]

I think he is saying autoshot breaks the CC before Glaive has a chance to snare its target thus giving them a few moments to react/move/etc.

Which would be way less than a sec, since Glaive Toss doesn't have a cast time. That's pretty much nonexistent reaction time.

[Hayro1]

Which would be way less than a sec, since Glaive Toss doesn't have a cast time. That's pretty much nonexistent reaction time.

It's distance based, and depends entirely on how far or close you are. Due to travel time.

[aarjun]

It's distance based, and depends entirely on how far or close you are. Due to travel time.

They both have travel time. It'd make sense if one of them didn't or Glaive Toss had a cast time. Both of them go off instantly if you start combat with Glaive Toss. Sure Auto Shot travels faster, but try it out on live and you'll see the time diff between the two hitting the target is less than a sec at max range.

[Thalin]

They both have travel time. It'd make sense if one of them didn't or Glaive Toss had a cast time. Both of them go off instantly if you start combat with Glaive Toss. Sure Auto Shot travels faster, but try it out on live and you'll see the time diff between the two hitting the target is less than a sec at max range.

Well can you offer any other reason the devs would implement this change?

[aarjun]

Well can you offer any other reason the devs would implement this change?

No, but no one can explain why they added Enduring Deceit and Lean Pack glyphs either. Both of them have pretty much 0 use in both PVP and PVE. My guess would be someone new took over hunter development while GC is in China, who has no idea how hunter mechanics work.

[Thalin]

Fair enough, I just wasn't sure if GT and autoshot had some other ramifications that I wasn't aware of.

[Deleted]

It's good one - one and half second. GT is WAY slower then auto attack. Breaking CC on mage, he using Blink and you have quite hilarious broken animation.

[Xiphias]

One last time, the reason he said why they added BA is total bull. That is not why they added BA. If you dont believe that then you have something wrong.

Tell me why they added Black Arrow, then. It shares a cooldown with Fire Traps and is used to trigger Lock and Load, and always has been. It was added when they removed Lock and Load from Serpent Sting. Without it, the only thing that would proc Lock and Load would be Explosive Trap which is an AoE ability. They wanted a way to proc Lock and Load while doing a single target rotation, so that's why they added Black Arrow.

Now, by removing Explosive Trap from Lock and Load (but also separating its cooldown from that of Black Arrow), you have to use a Single Target ability (Black Arrow) in order to proc Lock and Load while you're doing AoE. However, this isn't a big deal for two reasons: First, if you've got one main target and a bunch of small targets, you'll want to use Black Arrow on the main target anyway and then use your Lock and Load procs to Explosive Shot the main target, while relying on Multishot as a focus dump with Serpent Spread to damage the other targets along with Explosive Trap. Second, if you've got a whole bunch of small targets, you don't really care about Lock and Load procs, anyway, since Explosive Shot is single-target anyway, so you'd just focus on Explosive Trap + Multishot spam anyway. So in this case, the change doesn't really bother anyone.

If you had to use Explosive Trap only to get single-target Explosive Shot procs, it would be awkward, since you'd then be forced to use Explosive Trap on a single target in order to get those Lock and Load procs, and then also have to worry about enemy positioning all the time or be out a lot of DPS (so overall a pretty hefty nerf, with no compensation in sight). It's why they let you get procs from Black Arrow in the first place - why Black Arrow was introduced - when they took away Lock and Load from Serpent Sting.

[aarjun]

So, blue posted that the Enduring Deceit glyph is working as intended. They apparently think that only 10% "spell" damage reduction from a single spell on a 1min CD that prevents the hunter and the pet from dpsing is a good glyph. We're also not getting any new utility in 5.4.

They will be removing focus cost from Dash/Dive and Charge though.

[Xiphias]

So, blue posted that the Enduring Deceit glyph is working as intended. They apparently think that only 10% "spell" damage reduction from a single spell on a 1min CD that prevents the hunter and the pet from dpsing is a good glyph. We're also not getting any new utility in 5.4.

They will be removing focus cost from Dash/Dive and Charge though.

That's kind of ridiculous, considering Paladins get a 40% spell damage taken reduction on a 1 min cooldown without a glyph, and 20% spell + 20% physical damage taken reduction with a glyph, and they can continue DPSing through the entire duration, which is also longer (10 seconds instead of 6).

I understand that you can't just directly compare class abilities and that Camouflage does make you untargetable by ranged attacks and that you're a ranged attacker yourself so probably won't need as much in the way of defensive cooldowns... But still...

Elemental Shaman can use Shamanistic Rage to get 30% damage reduction from all sources for 15 seconds on a 60 second cooldown, and that is baseline - with a glyph, it also removes magic effects...

It would be nice if Enduring Deceit was at least a 30% spell damage reduction.

Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if it instantly broke if you use it right after firing a shot (especially a Cobra Shot) due to travel time of the shots, and dealing damage after you try to Camouflage... In fact, I'm not entirely sure of the wording right now - does Serpent Sting break Camouflage whenever it ticks?

[zenyatta]

Tell me why they added Black Arrow, then. It shares a cooldown with Fire Traps and is used to trigger Lock and Load, and always has been. It was added when they removed Lock and Load from Serpent Sting. Without it, the only thing that would proc Lock and Load would be Explosive Trap which is an AoE ability. They wanted a way to proc Lock and Load while doing a single target rotation, so that's why they added Black Arrow.

Now, by removing Explosive Trap from Lock and Load (but also separating its cooldown from that of Black Arrow), you have to use a Single Target ability (Black Arrow) in order to proc Lock and Load while you're doing AoE. However, this isn't a big deal for two reasons: First, if you've got one main target and a bunch of small targets, you'll want to use Black Arrow on the main target anyway and then use your Lock and Load procs to Explosive Shot the main target, while relying on Multishot as a focus dump with Serpent Spread to damage the other targets along with Explosive Trap. Second, if you've got a whole bunch of small targets, you don't really care about Lock and Load procs, anyway, since Explosive Shot is single-target anyway, so you'd just focus on Explosive Trap + Multishot spam anyway. So in this case, the change doesn't really bother anyone.

If you had to use Explosive Trap only to get single-target Explosive Shot procs, it would be awkward, since you'd then be forced to use Explosive Trap on a single target in order to get those Lock and Load procs, and then also have to worry about enemy positioning all the time or be out a lot of DPS (so overall a pretty hefty nerf, with no compensation in sight). It's why they let you get procs from Black Arrow in the first place - why Black Arrow was introduced - when they took away Lock and Load from Serpent Sting.

Black Arrow was added in patch 3.1. When it was initially implemented, it increased the damage you dealt to the target by 6%. I'm getting the feeling you either didn't play back then, or didn't play Survival. The fact that it triggered LnL was not its sole purpose.

I also feel like this led to Surv doing better with a particular pet based on that, but I may be mixing that up with something else.

[Xiphias]

Black Arrow was added in patch 3.1. When it was initially implemented, it increased the damage you dealt to the target by 6%. I'm getting the feeling you either didn't play back then, or didn't play Survival. The fact that it triggered LnL was not its sole purpose.

I also feel like this led to Surv doing better with a particular pet based on that, but I may be mixing that up with something else.

It also procced (and still does proc) Lock and Load.. It also does (and did do) damage over time.

I never said its only purpose was to proc Lock and Load. But that is why it was introduced in the first place - to give something to proc Lock and Load aside from Explosive Trap so it would have a single-target way to proc it. I don't see how it's up for debate... I wish people would stop putting words into other people's mouths and then arguing against them. What a strawman argument.

If they just wanted to buff SV's damage by 6% against a single target, they would just have buffed Hunter's Mark to do that (or perhaps 4 or 5% since it would be always applied due to having no cooldown and a long duration and would be easier to switch to a new target than Black Arrow).

Until Black Arrow was added, you could use Immolation or Explosive Trap to proc it, along with Serpent Sting, since it would proc on any damage-over-time ability you had. They took it off of Serpent Sting since it was too easy to trigger when you have lots of Serpent Stings up, and added Black Arrow as a way to trigger Lock and Load. They went with Black Arrow because there were no easy ways to get Immolation/Explosive Trap up on a boss - Trap Launcher wasn't added until Cata, so until then, you had to run up to a boss or to where the adds were going to be grouped up if you wanted to Immolation/Explosive Trap. As such, it would be ridiculous to expect a Hunter (a ranged class) to be forced to go into melee of the boss just to be able to drop a Trap there every 30 seconds in order to use something integral to their specialization (triggering Lock and Load). And yes, I am aware of Hunters having melee abilities up until MoP's release, but those abilities were meant to be used when you couldn't stay at range and were much more PvP oriented. Plus, the dead zone would make running into melee to drop a trap even more ridiculous.

They had to add something that would give SV Hunters a ranged way to trigger Lock and Load that wasn't Serpent Sting, so their solution was to use Black Arrow.

If you can't see that as being at least a significant reason as to why Black Arrow was added into the game (which is what GC is saying), then I'm not sure what else to say. They don't want you to be forced to use Explosive Trap (since Immolation Trap is gone now) in a single-target situation.

They didn't want you using Immolation Trap at the time, because it would have required you to go into melee range. If they added Trap Launcher, they might not have even bothered with Black Arrow, since then Hunters would have had a way to consistently get Lock and Load procs on a single target (or even AoE) by tossing out Immolation Traps on the boss instead. However, they only added Trap Launcher in Cata, so by then Black Arrow was already a staple SV Hunter ability and wouldn't just be removed (plus, it was basically just like a much-improved Immolation Trap on a target without having to aim the trap, anyway, since it shared a cooldown and was a damage-over-time ability).

[Deleted]

Ice (snare one, however is it called) trap is our utility according to devs. Are they f***ing serious? So our utility is to wipe every other snare and place raid in danger? Raiding is boring? Take hunter and let him bring his utility! You won't see any floor based damaging ability, your snares will be unpredictable and on the top of all, if enemy summons big blue ball of death or something similar on the top of the trap, you'll have to move away anyway. Oh the joy to raid with hunters! What an utility!

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...hunter-pve-54/

[Xiphias]

Hunters aren't entirely bereft of utility.

Ice Trap used to be a lot better, since usually it was just a Hunter kiting something, such as the skeletons on Gluth or something..

But nowadays, it's not that great, especially since it strips other slows, making them actually worse. If it didn't do that, it would be a lot more useful. As it is, we can't use Ice Trap against Tortos, since as soon as the shells reach the edge of the trap, they sudden become full speed.

Really, here's what a Hunter brings to a raid as far as utility is concerned:

Ice Trap (ground-based AoE slow, currently flawed in that it tends to wreck other slows and thus an enemy can theoretically be cleansed of a slow by entering the trap area and immediately leaving)

Concussive Shot (single-target short-duration slow which uses a GCD, ala Frost Shock... worse than Faerie Swarm, but not a Talent)

Trueshot Aura (attack power, brought by any Warrior or Death Knight, and notable for being the only ranged class to bring this buff)

Widow Venom (healing reduction, also brought by DPS Warriors, Monks, Rogues, and Warlocks with Felguard - this is also usually considered to be worthless in PvE since any healing effects tend to be preventable through an interrupt)

Counter Shot (interrupt, also brought by pretty much every class and spec, especially DPS specs, in one way or another, with the only notable exception off the top of my head being of Shadow Priest)

Tranquilizing Shot (dispel, also brought by Mage, Shaman, and Priests, or enrage removal which I believe is only otherwise brought by Druids but is rarely important)

One other raid buff, or Bloodlust or Battle Res, and those two and some buffs only via Beast Mastery.

Oh, and one sometimes-break-someone-from-a-movement-impairing-effect through Master's Call, but I find it never seems to work when I want it to do so. Plus I bet most hunters forget they have it.

That's about it.

To be honest, that's about as much as Mages get when looked at "by the numbers". Except that Mages get a better defensive cooldown (Ice Block vs Deterrence), can cheat death with Cauterize (or better yet, Cauterize + Alter Time, if you need to survive something that would instantly kill you) better than a Hunter can (although they might go Cold Snap for better Ice Blocks or Greater Invisibility), can avoid repair bills with Invisibility just like Hunters can Feign Death, automatically bring a Bloodlust without having to use a particular spec, traditionally have much higher sustained and burst DPS than Hunters (as any Mage spec at all!) in pretty much every patch, and also bring a Curse dispel. Mages can also heal themselves with Evocation using a Glyph (much better self-healing than a Hunter as a result).

[gulder]

Well, at least a whole bunch of people posted good retorts to Lore. Good, whine free, detailed retorts. Even Subrosian's reply was pleasantly free from vitriol.

Now we wait.

[Dracodraco]

Ice (snare one, however is it called) trap is our utility according to devs. Are they f***ing serious? So our utility is to wipe every other snare and place raid in danger? Raiding is boring? Take hunter and let him bring his utility! You won't see any floor based damaging ability, your snares will be unpredictable and on the top of all, if enemy summons big blue ball of death or something similar on the top of the trap, you'll have to move away anyway. Oh the joy to raid with hunters! What an utility!

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...hunter-pve-54/

Pretty much. As EU threads doesn't get responses, nor does it seem like they're read, can anyone respond to lore for me please:

The raid buffs can hardly be considered utility outside of a casual 10 man enviroment. REAL utility, is raidwide healing or DPS cooldowns (AG, Tranq, Rally, Devo, Skull banner, Stormlash, Smokebomb, etc). In a 25 man enviroment, the chance that a hunter will have to go get a specific pet to cover a missing raidbuff is incredibly small - not to mention that unless hunters has spent hours actively hunting every single pet for all buffs and keep them in their stables (thus minimizing the amount of "pretty" pets that we can have), chances are that you'll waste valueable raid time even getting the hunter to aquire said buff.

Ice trap cannot be considered "utility" either, with the way the current slow-system works. Allow me to elaborate a bit:
Currently, we have three types of slow -
Daze.
"Minor" slow (50%).
And "Major" slow (70%).

Daze effects are usually extremely short and more pvp-oriented than anything else, so let's not bother adressing them here.
This leaves us with the "Minor" and "Major" slows. To my knowledge, only Rogues (with a specific poison/talent?) and Warlocks (with a specific glyph?) brings the "Major" slow, although I may be mistaken. Of those two, only the warlock (through burning one of their soul shards? I don't know the specifics, I admit) can use it as an AOE-snare.

Now, the remaining slows all fall under the "minor" category (or 50% slow).
This includes:

In the AOE department:
Warrior roar.
DK Chillblains.
And I think shamans used to have one too?
And last but apparantly not least:
Hunter trap.

And then all the singletarget ones:
Mage "Slow".
Druid's talented Faerie Fire.
Warlock non-glyphed, non-sharded slow.
Shadow priest Mind Flay.
Paladin Burden of Guilt

You get the idea.

So, with these basics covered, here's how they work in a raid encounter:

Major Slow > Minor Slow. That is, if you have a "Slow" from a mage up, a warlock's 70% slow will overwrite the 50% slow.

If we have a 50% slow vs a 50% slow, longer duration will trumph shorter duration - EG, a warrior's Piercing Howl will overwrite a mage's Slow if the mage's Slow has a shorter duration left than 15.

Why does this matter?
Because traps are considered a ground-targetted debuff, and thus they have no duration at all. This means that their duration is, to the game, "infinite" - which means that apart from 70% slows from warlocks and rogues, a hunter trap will overwrite ALL other slows - no matter how freshly applied they are. Even worse, if the trap has only two or three seconds left of it's duration, it will overwrite a 15-second slow, and completly waste it.
Considering that the trap is prohibited to a specific area, it is largely useless for any fight where you'd want slows. For this expansion, let's take them from the top:

Protecters of the Endless Heroic -
As soon as the adds leave the trap-circle they will speed up and possibly fuck up your soaking rotation due to sudden movement. As only one add spawns at a time, singletarget slows (Slow, Faerie Fire) are FAR superior - not to mention 70% slows.

Sha of Fear Heroic -
As the adds were kited over a far greater distance than the trap could cover, you'd have constant suddden bursts of movement, which are obviously lethal if you don't pay attention. On the other hand, a warrior or a DK following them around applying their slows (passively, in case of the DK, due to blood boil+Rolling Blood) are far more efficient, and does not cause any issues with speed.

Tortos -
Turtles spin all over the place. Again, overwrites every kind of slow, and they will not stay within the area of the trap for much longer than a few seconds at a time. Using it is counter-productive.

And... That's about it.

Last, but not least:

Our trap is the only "AOE slow" that has a huge, annoying graphic that covers up ground effects. This is a SERIOUS issue. I remember having to slow the valkyrs during LK HC (retarded guild, retarded strategy <.<) with a trap, but we had one major issue - the trap would cover up the Defile graphic. This effect persists now, covering the circles that targets the ground on Tortos, for example. So using the trap, EVEN if it didn't overwrite other slows, is a hazard to your raid's survivability.


As for Misdirection - this is the only true "utility" hunters has. As mentioned above, neither buffs (that every class brings), nor freezing trap can be considered utility. Misdirection, however, have become worse and worse over the time, as you have given tanks more and more tools to gain aggro. Currently, a tank won't feel the difference between a MD pull or not - no fights with adds that needs MD'd have been released for the entire expansion so far, either, unless you count the bats on Tortos, which the offtank can grab just as easy himself.
I still fondly remember T11 and the importance of MD on a ton of encounters, because aggro wasn't a "given" back then, but something tanks had to work for.

Also - Misdirection is just a watered down version of Tricks of the Trade. How come rogues, who have far better survivability (feint, cloak, vanish), better damage, and a raid CD also has the superior version of Misdirection?

(oh, and also - how come the only "original" thing hunters brings to the raid, AOE sunders, are being made a rogue-buff through a glyph next tier? Do they not have ENOUGH utility?).


So before you start speaking about utility, you may want to find out what the raiding community as a whole finds "utility" is. It can be boiled down to these points:

An external cooldown that somehow boosts the raid's performance (be it defensively or offensively).
An original buff that *no one else*, or very few classes brings (Warlock's gateways, warlock's 70% slows, Rogues Tricks, Druid's Stampeding roar).
Overall Survivability and ability to survive an encounter (EG, how mages have Cauterize to save them if they die, Iceblock, Blink, Ice barrier, the works).

In no way does "baseline buffs" fall under this category. You will notice that the only thing hunters has that falls under this category is the unreliable Deterrence for survivability benefits (which is our only dmg reduction CD, which may or may not deflect a boss ability depending on the developers mood's), and the inferior Misdirection.
To put it in perspective:

Shadow priest:
Hymn of Hope.
Vampiric Embrace.
AOE-root.
Lvl 90 talent offhealing.

Mage:
Iceblock.
Cauterize/Greater invis/Cold Snap (dependant on encounter).
Alter Time.
Only non-healer "class" to have a dispell (curse).

Warlock:
Gateways.
Healthstones.
70% Slow.
The multitude of personal CD's warlocks have.
"Instant" combat ress, assuming you know which target will die (think tank's on Ra Den - only a Soulstone can "react" quick enough to save a tank death from going haywire).

Druids (boomkin/feral):
Stampeding Roar.
Tranquility.
Typhoon.
Ursol's Vortex.
Solar Beam (AOE silence for an extended duration - Boomkin only).

Monks:
Strongest AOE-stun (leg sweep).
2x 90% reduc cooldowns.

Rogues:
Tricks.
Smoke Bomb.
Cloak of Shadows.
Feint (the only spam-able damage reduction).
Longest singletarget stun.
70% Slow.

Shamans:
Stormlash.
Healing Tide Totem (from next patch onwards).
Ancestral Guidance or permanent healing rain (from next patch onwards).
AOE-hand of Freedom.
Grounding totems that can prevent ceartain boss abilities from working.

Hunters:
Misdirection.
Deterrence (which counts as both our immunity and our 1 min "damage reduction" CD - which, by the way, blocks us from attacking).

Paladins:
Bubble.
1 Min CD on their 40% magic reduction CD (or 20/20).
Hand of Protection (Resets tank debuffs, allowing encounters to be 1 tanked).
Hand of Sacrifice (only DPS class to have a singletarget dmg reduc CD).
Hand of Purity (second singletarget DMG reduc CD for paladins).
Devotion Aura.

Warriors:
Skull Banner.
Demo Banner.
Mocking Banner.
Rallying cry.
Shockwave (shortest CD AOE stun).

Death Knights:
Gorefiend's Grasp/AOE stun.
Passive AOE-slow during AOE (if talented correct).
Death Grip (positioning of mobs - can be glyphed to not taunt).
AMZ (changed to a base 40% magic dmg reduc in 5.4).
Army of the Dead (to counter heavy damage from lose adds, for example, Lei Shi).


The above are the "utility" different classes has, in my eyes as a raidleader of a world top 30 25man raiding guild. Hunters are woefully behind - only rivalled by windwalker monks, really.

[Deleted]

Our utility in raid is to soak agility mail and range weapons. Maybe it sounds funny or cheesy, but it is. When you are progressing, chances are hunter will stand out from others in raids with his ilvl. Especially in current situations when you see 1, top 2 hunters per 25 raid.
The other utility, is of course, pet - be it filling one buff / debuff or AoE sunder. All in all, it wouldn't be that grim or frustrating if all other classes had the same treatment.

However, starting from MoP (as expansion), they gave portals to locks and banners to warriors. Two class which already were loaded with utilities. Portal would be perfect for a mage (e.g. as wormhole) while banners could go to the hunters (e.g. as special pet's... something).

When 5.2 (or was it 5.1) was work in progress, they decided that rogues were falling behind on utility and gave them improved Smoke Bomb. Rogues already had TotT which even has in-built 15% damage boost. Also TotT costs energy, while glyphed one doesn't, but also removes damage boost. True rogues are melee classes, so sometimes you want MD, but sometimes TotT would yield better effect.
As for Ice trap, if I'm not mistaken, with FoK they can put 50% snare which is target based, not ground (no additional animation layer on the floor and if target moves away from the point when slow was applying, debuff stays). With Shiv (as single target slow), they can snare target by 70% which is far more superior then out Conc. Again, we are range and they are melee, so that also comes in play.
Now, we can go touch area where rogues wins by few light years - defensive tools.
Yet, even on the par with hunters (utility wise) or ahead of them in defensive area - for some reason developers thought they need better raid tool.

If we are talking about locks - every time I see blue post talking about utilities he says - "Maah, you are fine. Locks are OP. We'll fix it!" As far as I know, locks aren't loosing neither portal, neither HS, neither 70% snare (aff spec).
When we are talking about Ice trap and, let say, Tortos - our trap wasn't utility there. It was lock's 70% snare. Yet this snare, way superior to our trap is not, apparently, even problematic, but a portal is.
When we were using Stampede to give us an edge in certain situations via pet's buffs (being filling missing buffs/debuffs, or silances, or stuns or stacking Spirit Heals) it was mini-game which they wanted to remove from the game. Yet, in the very same time, they are ok with the mini-game called "How with portal we can ignore mechanics" or "How with BoP we can ignore need for 2 tanks".
Not to mention a patch ago, it was hassle for warlocks when they needed to keep pet with stamina buff (so they blend it with... what? SP buff?), but having BL available to only BM is, apparently, a perk. I won't even go into, let say, stats or CR.

When mages were at the start of T15 a percent or two behind other AoE classes, they hot-fixed bombs. Yet, in the whole expansion we are asking for multi-dot, cleave and AoE tools which would put us on pair with other classes it wasn't even on table, apart from AoE. Not to mention that GC statement was - "We are buffing BC so you don't feel like an idiot on AoE fights!" Well guess what, I'm feeling like idiot in multi-dot fights.

Even recently, after crying and crying for utility, they don't want to give hunter that cursed raid CD, but in the very same time it's perfectly fine to redo AMZ to be proper raid CD. Also, it's perfectly fine to give one of hunter utility to rogues (AoE sunder).
In the very same time, our frustration is boosted when we look back at our own new glyphs (rogues got our utility via glyph) - Lean Pack - reduce AotP range by 7 yards. It's like they are mocking us (remember that we have minor glyph which INCREASES AotP range by 15 yards). What's next? Major glyph which makes pet barks at hunter if he didn't loot something? A major glyph which dazes if hunter is hit while being in Aot(I)H?

Slap on all of that Deterrence nerf (only defensive ability which disarm user) and never ending problems with scalling. And problem where number pass is done after raid testing not before, so our best chance is to pray. Because you know, they can "overshot" with buffs (which they did every single patch so it was PTR buffs -> PTR nerfs (to tone down overshot-ting) -> hot fix -> new patch with mid-tier band aid fixes). And yeah, well, you get kinda frustrated players...


P.S. I'm not usually post-whore (:P), but if someone can C/P it to US ones, I would be little bit less frustrated =]

[gulder]

Done for both.

[Slot]

Hunters aren't entirely bereft of utility.

Ice Trap used to be a lot better, since usually it was just a Hunter kiting something, such as the skeletons on Gluth or something..

But nowadays, it's not that great, especially since it strips other slows, making them actually worse. If it didn't do that, it would be a lot more useful. As it is, we can't use Ice Trap against Tortos, since as soon as the shells reach the edge of the trap, they sudden become full speed.

Really, here's what a Hunter brings to a raid as far as utility is concerned:

Ice Trap (ground-based AoE slow, currently flawed in that it tends to wreck other slows and thus an enemy can theoretically be cleansed of a slow by entering the trap area and immediately leaving)

Concussive Shot (single-target short-duration slow which uses a GCD, ala Frost Shock... worse than Faerie Swarm, but not a Talent)

Trueshot Aura (attack power, brought by any Warrior or Death Knight, and notable for being the only ranged class to bring this buff)

Widow Venom (healing reduction, also brought by DPS Warriors, Monks, Rogues, and Warlocks with Felguard - this is also usually considered to be worthless in PvE since any healing effects tend to be preventable through an interrupt)

Counter Shot (interrupt, also brought by pretty much every class and spec, especially DPS specs, in one way or another, with the only notable exception off the top of my head being of Shadow Priest)

Tranquilizing Shot (dispel, also brought by Mage, Shaman, and Priests, or enrage removal which I believe is only otherwise brought by Druids but is rarely important)

One other raid buff, or Bloodlust or Battle Res, and those two and some buffs only via Beast Mastery.

Oh, and one sometimes-break-someone-from-a-movement-impairing-effect through Master's Call, but I find it never seems to work when I want it to do so. Plus I bet most hunters forget they have it.

That's about it.

To be honest, that's about as much as Mages get when looked at "by the numbers". Except that Mages get a better defensive cooldown (Ice Block vs Deterrence), can cheat death with Cauterize (or better yet, Cauterize + Alter Time, if you need to survive something that would instantly kill you) better than a Hunter can (although they might go Cold Snap for better Ice Blocks or Greater Invisibility), can avoid repair bills with Invisibility just like Hunters can Feign Death, automatically bring a Bloodlust without having to use a particular spec, traditionally have much higher sustained and burst DPS than Hunters (as any Mage spec at all!) in pretty much every patch, and also bring a Curse dispel. Mages can also heal themselves with Evocation using a Glyph (much better self-healing than a Hunter as a result).

AOE sunder from tall strider pet is the only aoe sunder in game which is pretty nice and Hunters only niche in 25m. But come patch rogues will get this with fan of knives.

[Saoron]

All they really care about with regards to hunters is pvp.. that is all.. they are just 'there' in pve.. we had a 'potentially' decent aoe stun with that binding arrow or w/e.. even that was poorly designed for pve and more meant for pvp where if the target moved, he'd get stunned.. But alas, they took that away.. why ? I don't even fucking have a clue.. did they think we had too much utility ? Like do these devs play the game atm or only raided in vanilla/BC and keep bringing up freezing trap and shit as valid utilities.. If they kept that aoe stun and made it like an instant stun, hunters would atleast have some use.. stunners for lei shen ball lightnings for instance.. as an instant, it would have been amazing.. throw down the arrow.. get the dk to grip them to the arrow.. gg.. but that is gone.. and apparantly we are 'fine'.. sigh

And then his comment on us wanting utility for raid spots instead of dmg.. completely ignoring the months of posts by hunters saying the exact same thing.. Fine, don't give us utility cuz you're afraid of pvp butthurt.. Make us the top dps in the game and trust me, we will all shut up.