Now the anti-vaccine people have a new soapbox

[zorkuus]

Because there is none. There is a difference in the way homeopathy is practiced, but not necessarily in the logic.

The logic behind vaccines is to introduce the disease to your immune system in a way that doesn't make you sick or kill you (doesn't contain the live germ). The doseage depends on the vaccine.

The "logic" behind homeopathy is that the less of the active ingredient there is the better it works (sometimes it's so little it's mathematically absurd and 1 out of millions of pills or bottles would contain one molecule of the active ingredient). Even if it worked 999.999 pills out a million would still be a placebo at best.

The logic behind homeopathy is NOT to introduce the active ingredient in some specified doseages but SPECIFICALLY in as small doseages as possible, everyone single one of them, no matter the disease or the "medicine".

They're not the same at all.

[Deleted]

You're going to have to explain yourself better because that's not proper homeopathy.

Then you know jack shit about homeopathy. It's based on "like cures like". Therefore if something causes symptoms similar to what the patient has got, then it must be a cure.

[Masark]

Vaccines are not used to cure an infection after it has happened.

Slight nitpick - they sometimes can be. If given soon enough after the infection, they can get the immune reaction running and wipe out the infection before the virus gets established. Hep B (this is why the Hep B vaccine is given at birth in the USA) and rabies vaccines are used this way all the time.

[Dezerte]

Where the hell do these people come from.

[zorkuus]

Where the hell do these people come from.

From the pits of hell. I would propably have more success in talking sense to the moon landing hoax people. The best part is in some cases these are propably the same people.

[FTAzai]

First of all, these are finally posts I've been waiting to respond to for a while.

1. Vaccines contain small quantities of the weakened or dead virus, or some other part of it used as a signature to train the immune system, in every single dose. Homeopathic solutions, on the other hand, are diluted so much, that it is extremely unlikely that even a single molecule of the substance being made into a homeopathic solution, remains. Effectively, homeopathic pills are sugar pills and contain no active ingredient.

2. Scientific evidence supporting the use of homeopathic solutions as vaccines, is non-existent. Scientific evidence supporting the efficacy and safety of real vaccines is abundant, and a simple PubMed search will satisfy anyone’s curiosity.

3. Homeopathy is based on a belief that “likes cures likes”; whatever causes the disease can be super-diluted to cure it. Vaccines are not used to cure diseases, but to prevent them. The weakened virus in a vaccine is used to “train” the immune system to fight the virus when exposed to it. Vaccines are not used to cure an infection after it has happened.

http://www.vaccinetimes.com/ive-hear...t-to-vaccines/

It was very colourful though.

1. Again, the article describes improper homeopathic practice. That's not homeopathy. There are no legitimate scientific claims of water memory or whatever is being peddled out there. There are homeopathic treatments that often contain substantial amounts of the element they're designed to treat or prevent. You can't just branch everything under the same umbrella just because of a few noteworthy examples being labeled as such.

It's the same concept behind racial profiling and stereotyping.

2. This is true for the homeopathic straw man constructed by this article.

3. All vaccines treat diseases. Some are used to cure diseases, while the great majority is used to prevent the from happening. You're basically diluting the potency of a virus or other pathogen by preparing it in a vaccine. "Like cures like" doesn't always work, but it's been a sound starting base for most vaccines today. We don't see "like cures like" working for HIV, but it has certainly worked for smallpox. Again, a very true article though when you're using it to argue the straw homeopathy man that has been created.

The logic behind vaccines is to introduce the disease to your immune system in a way that doesn't make you sick or kill you (doesn't contain the live germ). The doseage depends on the vaccine.

The "logic" behind homeopathy is that the less of the active ingredient there is the better it works (sometimes it's so little it's mathematically absurd and 1 out of millions of pills or bottles would contain one molecule of the active ingredient). Even if it worked 999.999 pills out a million would still be a placebo at best.

The logic behind homeopathy is NOT to introduce the active ingredient in some specified doseages but SPECIFICALLY in as small doseages as possible, everyone single one of them, no matter the disease or the "medicine".

They're not the same at all.

Again, you're branding homeopathy by your own standards or the standards of a few select yet fraudulent practitioners. I'll just repeat what I've said earlier that you can't just branch everything under the same umbrella just because of a few noteworthy examples being labeled as such. That's the same logic that people used with the autism scare in vaccines, despite it not being true.

Then you know jack shit about homeopathy. It's based on "like cures like". Therefore if something causes symptoms similar to what the patient has got, then it must be a cure.

It's also the logic we used for most vaccines. Except that we know that if we actually gave them the full blown pathogen, it would kill them. So we've weakened it and diluted it until we found a way to introduce the pathogen without causing the disease.





And for last emphasis: I don't practice homeopathy. I don't use it in the GENERAL sense of the word, aka self proclaimed miracle solutions. I am just promoting discussion on the parallels between homeopathy, when practiced correctly, and many other successful medications.

It seems like homeopathy became a label for scam artists to hide behind so they can peddle products to people desperate for cures, when it could be an interesting field to research. Wait, we already do.

Because we practice homeopathy every day legitimately without calling it by that name.

A vaccine is a thing. A vaccination is a process. Homeopathy is a process. If anything, you're quoting the wrong definition.

They're similar but they're not the same. Homeopathy extends to whatever the madman thinks he can push. Vaccines have strict lines which are certain diseases.

This is the only person who has any idea of what I'm talking about.



Not all homeopathy is based off the "reduce everything to nothing, that'll work" rationale.

[Kalis]

Slight nitpick - they sometimes can be. If given soon enough after the infection, they can get the immune reaction running and wipe out the infection before the virus gets established. Hep B (this is why the Hep B vaccine is given at birth in the USA) and rabies vaccines are used this way all the time.

Not my words Carol, the words of Top Gear magazine.

[zorkuus]

Again, you're branding homeopathy by your own standards or the standards of a few select yet fraudulent practitioners. I'll just repeat what I've said earlier that you can't just branch everything under the same umbrella just because of a few noteworthy examples being labeled as such. That's the same logic that people used with the autism scare in vaccines, despite it not being true.

No it is you who is taking every form of "alternative medicine" and slapping them all under the same umbrella of homeopathy. They're not all the same. Homeopathy is a very specific kind of "alternative medicine" and what me and others have described comes from them, or more specifically from the one man who invented it. The one's you speak of who practise homeopathy wrong do not practise homeopathy at all.

Not all homeopathy is based off the "reduce everything to nothing, that'll work" rationale.

Yes it is, see above.

[The Madgod]

Because there is none.

The difference is that they specify that homeopathy uses a lower amount of something to treat a disease or affliction. Vaccines don't do that. It's not about having a lower PPM than the natural amount, nor largely, treating disease, it's about using a defanged version of the pathogen to prevent disease altogether.

It's a big stretch of the definitions to say they lack a significant difference.

[Dezerte]

Not all homeopathy is based off the "reduce everything to nothing, that'll work" rationale.

That is the very definition of homeopathy. Can you at least give examples of homeopathic medicines that have an effect other than placebo? Or is this just semantics on your part? You're the one trying to slap other treatments under the umbrella of homeopathy.

[FTAzai]

The difference is that they specify that homeopathy uses a lower amount of something to help one immunize themselves against it. Vaccines don't do that. It's not about having a lower PPM than the natural amount, it's about using a defanged version of the pathogen.

It's a big stretch of the definitions to say they lack a significant difference.

That's very true. It's still an application of "like cures like" philosophy found in homeopathy. And this doesn't account for things like allergy shots, that actually reduce the doses of otherwise deadly allergens in order to build tolerance.

That is the very definition of homeopathy. Can you at least give examples of homeopathic medicines that have an effect other than placebo? Or is this just semantics on your part?

Mostly semantics. Again, there's a difference between the dictionary description of homeopathy, and what practices end up being labeled as homeopathy.

No it is you who is taking every form of "alternative medicine" and slapping them all under the same umbrella of homeopathy. They're not all the same. Homeopathy is a very specific kind of "alternative medicine" and what me and others have described comes from them, or more specifically from the one man who invented it. The one's you speak of who practise homeopathy wrong do not practise homeopathy at all.

Really? I have slandered against all forms of alternative medicine? Interesting. I've never done such a thing! You're going to have to prove this one.

Yes it is, see above.

I guess I'm going to stop with this argument because the connotations are often the most real definition of any word, rather than the definition itself. While homeopathy has a logic that has worked, the logic's effectiveness ends when the practitioner distills the remedy to nothing, therefore a failure of application.



So do we really disagree with "like cures like" that we've been arguing about? Or do we disagree with "distillation until there's little/nothing left and we rely on water memory"?

Let's know why we view something as wrong or bad. That is the real point of why I brought any of this up.

[Deleted]

ah the woman who injects the most lethal toxin known to man into her face is against vaccines. She sounds very plausible

[Lenonis]

has this thread really devolved into a semantics debate? Ugh...I almost prefer people spouting unscientific nonsense. Almost...

[Orange Joe]

That's very true. It's still an application of "like cures like" philosophy found in homeopathy. And this doesn't account for things like allergy shots, that actually reduce the doses of otherwise deadly allergens in order to build tolerance.

I'm sorry. I really don't know so I asking honestly. Can you name some of the vaccines that are used after as a cure?


From my understanding that is the major difference between the two.


Vaccine = preventative. Used before you catch it to build an immunity to it.

Homeopathy = cure. Used after to treat an illness.

[The Madgod]

That's very true. It's still an application of "like cures like" philosophy found in homeopathy. And this doesn't account for things like allergy shots, that actually reduce the doses of otherwise deadly allergens in order to build tolerance.

That's their only significant connection though... they put "stuff" into the body to help make the body better.

They have a difference of what stuff, how they make it safe, and a general use to combat disease... which makes them very different beasts, contrary to your saying there isn't a difference.

That's like saying a bike and a car are the same because they're used to transport you from point A to point B. The use is the same, but there's differences in what makes up each vehicle, what powers it, the engineering behind each... there's a lot of differences despite that one similarity.

I'm sorry. I really don't know so I asking honestly. Can you name some of the vaccines that are used after as a cure?


From my understanding that is the major difference between the two.


Vaccine = preventative. Used before you catch it to build an immunity to it.

Homeopathy = cure. Used after to treat an illness.

The rabies vaccine is used both preventatively as well as a treatment (not a cure, per se, but it is a similar use as homeopathy)

[Dezerte]

Mostly semantics. Again, there's a difference between the dictionary description of homeopathy, and what practices end up being

I'm waiting for sources.

Wikipedia, and the top hits for dictionary, all state that homeopathy is exactly what we've been saying.

[Deleted]

What a disaster it will be to have her on a show with as much credibility, intellect and respectability as The View.

- - - Updated - - -



Lol, why bother participating in a conversation if you only think like-minded people shoudl be allowed to post? What's the fun in sitting in a circle all day agreeing with each other?

Thats the difference. I have no problem to have a discussion and to try to covince them that they are wrong. BUT there can not be a disccusion with fanatics. Thats the difference.

[zorkuus]

Really? I have slandered against all forms of alternative medicine? Interesting. I've never done such a thing! You're going to have to prove this one.

I didn't say anything about slandering. I just pointed out that you are wrong about there being different kinds of homeopathic methods, which in turn seems to suggest that you find homeopathy synonymous with alternative medicine as a whole. Like i said homeopathy is a very specific kind of alternative medicine and there's only one method it uses (that method is the whole point behind it to begin with).

While homeopathy has a logic that has worked

No. Just stop, please do.

[FTAzai]

That's their only significant connection though... they put "stuff" into the body to help make the body better.

They have a difference of what stuff, how they make it safe, and a general use to combat disease... which makes them very different beasts, contrary to your saying there isn't a difference.

That's like saying a bike and a car are the same because they're used to transport you from point A to point B.

It's not just putting stuff into your body. If you put something you're allergic to in your body, without paying attention to the dose, you're going to probably die from it if you don't receive immediate treatment.

The dose starts out incredibly miniscule to promote a controlled reaction, and gets subsequently bigger as the immune system learns to cope with the allergen instead of creating an intense inflammatory response.

Again I'm done lol, I'm done arguing semantics. I just wanted people to know why homeopathy is generally looked down upon by most people.

I'm waiting for sources.

Wikipedia, and the top hits for dictionary, all state that homeopathy is exactly what we've been saying.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homeopathy
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/homeopathy
http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/def...ish/homeopathy

Honestly, maybe the definitions are too vague. They state practices used by many legitimate medical fields, without defining the key aspect of the treatment (that it is diluted to almost nothing and reliant on "water memory" or some other pseudoscientific concept).

I didn't say anything about slandering. I just pointed out that you are wrong about there being different kinds of homeopathic methods, which in turn seems to suggest that you find homeopathy synonymous with alternative medicine as a whole. Like i said homeopathy is a very specific kind of alternative medicine and there's only one method it uses (that method is the whole point behind it to begin with).

No. Just stop, please do.

You should have finished that sentence. "Like cures like". Works with correct application in vaccines, antivenom, allergy shots, etc.

Homeopathic guy: maybe if I distill this until it's almost nothing, it would work too! (Doesn't work).

There you go, homeopathic logic works until application.

Thats the difference. I have no problem to have a discussion and to try to covince them that they are wrong. BUT there can not be a disccusion with fanatics. Thats the difference.

Agreed. Otherwise it wouldn't make for a likeminded discussion. There has to be a fanatical supporter, or at least a fanatical devil's advocate. Without an opposing side, you may not see the broad spectrum of a given situation and make mistakes as a result.

[Dezerte]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homeopathy
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/homeopathy
http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/def...ish/homeopathy

I think I see the problem you're having, check the definition for 'minute'.