Did GC really just say Cata Heroics were hard?

[Seriss]

*sobs uncontrollably* The beginning of Cata was a really awful episode in the life of this poor little resto shaman... Why did you have to bring it up again? *cry* Grim Batol... oh god... the memories... How I was told that I shouldn't even dream of entering heroic deadmines as a resto shaman... *blows nose*

As a reminder, shamys got sizeable buffs to their healing several months into Cata... the start of it was hell. You went oom after every single pull what with people still in "We have Shadowmournes, we need no CC" mode. And then you had to drink, and then everyone wanted to be healed to full before the next pull, and you did, and then you had to drink again, and everyone was annoyed, and everyone basically waited until they got a holy paladin online because they didn't have such mana problems and didn't require that you use any sort of CC... You had to whinge and moan if you wanted the mage to sheep something and the melee to interrupt something or you had to do the interrupting by yourself as a shaman. Or else you'd not make it. You had to suffer for everything that your group refused to do. Cata heroics were a burden that was exclusively carried by healer shoulders.

People simply don't want to CC in a lowly 5-man dungeon. They don't want to spend 2 hours in Grim Batol. The times when you spent an entire afternoon on your first Shadow Labyrinth heroic run are gone - funny thing is that I actually found that awesome back then, but today... good god, what was I thinking? Was I suffering from temporary insanity to subject myself to that stuff voluntarily back then? Likely.

[MouseD]

I think iam kind of at a loss here. I find it hard to believe that he actually thinks they were 'hard'.

By the middle/end of the expansion I remember steamrolling them like any other heroic dungeon. At the beginning of the expansion they were a little difficult, required some CC but thats about it.

By the middle of the expansion people were so geared that you could just pull 3-4 groups like a normal dungeon.

I fail to ever see this point that he claims where heroics dungeons were really THAT hard to accomplish. Maybe its just me though.....

Yes they were quite hard for many players as most players got use to way the heroics were in LK ..those were calk walks in LK....I was quite upset when they nerf the heck out of the cata heroics bunch of pansy weights couldn't do the proper pulls by using CC methods ...so of course Cata heroic got nerfed to stop the QQ from most the of the player base. Most of the player base at beginning of Cata Heroics couldn't understand how to do proper CC...

[Bisso]

They were never hard, if someone played TBC then it's kinda obvious conclusion.

They were, or you have rose-tinted glasses, or you haven't played in BC, or you haven't done the heroic in the first week of Cata. I could easily compare heroic Grim Batol to Shadowlabs. Frustrating trash, tough bosses, pats. Yeah they were definatly hard, not that I have anything against them.

[Rustedsaint]

Playing on my enhance shammy, prot warrior, or priest I never realy had any problems besides killing admiral ripfang in lfd at start of cata.
probably cause I started playing at the end of vanilla and spent alot of time in bc heroics.

[Osmeric]

.so of course Cata heroic got nerfed to stop the QQ from most the of the player base.

No, it didn't get nerfed to stop the QQ, it got nerfed because large numbers of people quit.

Now I want you to think about how the also large number of quits in MoP are going to change the game. The great majority of those quitting aren't hardcores, so you can imagine.

[nekobaka]

all heroic dungeons were hard before you over gear them
but, WoTLK and Cata heroics there werent strong quest rewards prior to starting them like MoP did.
This is why they felt brutal and horrific at start. (culling of stratholme and blackrock caverns oh boy....)

MoP however, there was not a single heroic that took much time to get done except maybe shadopan monastery.

Personally I would like it if heroics became more rewarding, and cannot be over geared (Gear Scale cap)

MoP was also highly under tuned for the required ilvl unless you tune it for two dead weight. I remember the devs making a fuss about giving into players asking for the ilvl to be lowered three points. With the way the MoP heroics was tuned they could have been lowered ten points and it still would have been easier than WotLK heroics. DS heroics was on par with WotLK, what we got in MoP is just mindless crap to be forgotten so that we can get herded off into LFR.

Now I want you to think about how the also large number of quits in MoP are going to change the game. The great majority of those quitting aren't hardcores, so you can imagine.

If you mean hard core raiders then no they are not leaving because they have engaging content for them. Who are leaving are the casuals who no longer have engaging content because it was hit with a giant nerf bat to anything casual because apparently being casual makes you bad.

[Doktor Faustus]

I remember them being a challenge at the start, it was refreshing almost like certain TBC heroics.

But at least you didn't need fecking keys to access Cata ones

[AeneasBK]

*shrug* I found TBC heroics harder because I hadn't played the game for 4 years when they came out. Otherwise... Mother of God.

As it was, my guild ran 25 man raiding at the end of Wrath and had a playerpool large enoguh nad close-knit enough to run the Cata heroics on mumble etc. so we didn't struggle so much. Oh that and it was more economical waiting 2 hours for a guild group to clear them in 30-40 minutes than it was to queue up for a PuG and wipe for 90 minutes and not even finish. . . So we tended to pug less for that reason.

But yes, OP; you're awesome and the heroics weren't hard for you. But they were for too many people.

[Nerraw]

Did Blizzard really just hire a marine biologist to lead their video game?

He was the Lead guy at Ensemble Studios for years as well before they shut down. You know, the guys that made Age of Empires. Blizzard picked him up after that.

[soulkeeperx]

They were quite a step up from the faceroll Wrath "heroics" for sure. They made a big deal out of how hard the cata 5 mans were, they even made a blog post about it, then proceeded to nerf them shortly after. Once they made WotLK 5 mans pug-friendly, there was no turning around from that one way street, either they left the 5 mans on tier with TBC 5 mans, or permanently kept them casual.

[Mad_Murdock]

None of my solo queue runs took two hours even on launch week. Than again on launch week a lot of the ZA groups I was in had players who already knew the place from back in BC. There was not much communication needed. I even healed a DK tank in blues despite all the QQ about DKs being bad tanks, it was a L2P issue.

Is this something unique to Ruin battle group or was I just lucky?
.

I'd say you were damn lucky. Hell even two months it was a total crap shoot on if it was going to suck or not. Best I could say is a 50/50 chance to have a non eventful run and I consider myself to be fairly optimistic about pugging in general, ZA\ZG was almost the straw that broke me. I will say that I was playing both factions then and one faction was markedly worse than the other. Not so much in player skills, but in player rage and how little it took to set someone off.

They were quite a step up from the faceroll Wrath "heroics" for sure.

After seeing the fall out of Halls of Reflection, I was kinda surpised they went for the harder heroics myself. But I will admit I was 100% wrong. I had predicted that the general population would step up and get better and all the gloom and doom predictions were unfounded. What a rude surprise that was.

[Deleted]

The first few weeks? Yes, they were difficult. Not heroic raid difficult, but difficult compared to the heroics at the start of Wrath or MOP.

TBC Difficult. Perfect difficulty in means of lurning curve when stepping up to raids.

I remember them being a challenge at the start, it was refreshing almost like certain TBC heroics.

But at least you didn't need fecking keys to access Cata ones

Keys after nerf took about 2 normal dungeons, to get keys prenerf it took 7-10 normal dungeons depending on how much you clear.

Not sure why people look back and think it tuck so much effort, you could all keys within first week of dinging 70 playing super casual. :P

[Osmeric]

If you mean hard core raiders then no they are not leaving because they have engaging content for them. Who are leaving are the casuals who no longer have engaging content because it was hit with a giant nerf bat to anything casual because apparently being casual makes you bad.

My take is that the guilds that had supported casual players in Wrath were demolished in Cataclysm, and without those guilds there was nothing much keeping them playing. The design of end game content in MoP did nothing to encourage the reconstitution of those guilds; quite the opposite. Casual guilds have been almost entirely useless this expansion. Flex raids look like they're a day late and a dollar short.

[Unclekreepy]

did you play in cata? ... in the beginning it was RETARDED for pugs.. they weren't "hard" they were annoying because a lot of puggers don't know how to play.


when I would queue with my friends it was a breeze.

[Jainzar]

The first few weeks? Yes, they were difficult. Not heroic raid difficult, but difficult compared to the heroics at the start of Wrath or MOP.

no they weren't. you just couldn't be afk half of the dungeon and had to pay a little attention and CC some mobs. that's not difficult. but then again there's people so dumb and bad at this game who think lfr is difficult.

[Chickat]

In an expansion that lasts longer than a year, this is exactly how it should be. And really, once DS rolled around, the troll dungeons really weren't an issue at all. Bear runs became the norm rather than the exception in LFD.

Once 4.3 was around, they were still harder then anything we ever saw in wrath, and just as hard imo as the launch dungeons prenerf. I liked them though.

[Lighto73]

I didnt whine at all. lol your perception is very twisted.

I said I find it funny that he thinks they were THAT hard, when they werent. I played launch, I had an 85 in 6 days, I remember it all. They werent THAT hard and if it was to you then your a noob.

Sorry to say it.

All it required was good CC. Maybe I already had that because I was a decent mage, so I always CC'ed the healer and if someone else CC'ed another it was usually pretty doable without much grief.

He clearly says they were hard for a random group of people.

If you get into a group with no CC, or a not so good healer, a terrible tank, etc.

We did guild groups just fine, but for LFD content, they were hard.

[Deleted]

did you play in cata? ... in the beginning it was RETARDED for pugs.. they weren't "hard" they were annoying because a lot of puggers don't know how to play.


when I would queue with my friends it was a breeze.

Hence the learning curve...which wouldn't be as bad if they had kept that system, breaking down a system half way in that encourages players to play better is not a smart move. But then came lfr and it all made sense.

He clearly says they were hard for a random group of people.

If you get into a group with no CC, or a not so good healer, a terrible tank, etc.

We did guild groups just fine, but for LFD content, they were hard.

You can't blame a mage for not finding his sheep spell if he didn't need to use it even once in 2 years. Stupid example, but it goes for any utility to make dungeon running easier.

[mmines]

Those damn hour of twilights were easier than the first dungeons or the zandalari ones.

[Keristrasza]

I think people forget what things were like when everyone was in blues and it wasn't four overgeared people and one new guy every run.

Yes, early Cata heroics were challenging. They weren't mechanically complex, but they were pretty tough on DPS requirements and on running healers out of mana if any one in the group made a mistake. Considering a ton of people did these heroics in PuGs via the LFD tool where it is possible, perhaps even likely, that half your group was droolinglydumb, the problem was just exacerbated. Yeah, sure, it wasn't too bad if you were in a guild group with players who knew their stuff, but that's not really what should set the bar. Hell, I stopped healing because I was sick of being the scapegoat for every other bad player. I took longer queues, to do a job I liked less, just to avoid that issue. I know a number of people who refused to PuG or run them at all. It was a miserable experience.

And yeah, as soon as we were a few months in and everyone overgeared them, they were cake. That's how overgearing works.

I agree entirely with this, I used to love healing in Classic, stopped in BC because I hated the heroics but really got into it again in Wrath. When cata came around I got sick and tired of fail groups blaming me for their mistakes. Cata made me hate doing dungeon's all over again to the point that I just stopped running them entirely. I used PVP to gear up 100% (Despite hating pvp) and then jumped right into the LFR to circumvent the need to run a heroic at all. Only when the twilight 5mans come out did I start doing dungeons again and even though MoP is easy I find myself gun-shy thanks to Cata.