Did GC really just say Cata Heroics were hard?

[Biske]

You can't learn the mechanics in the way I am talking about by reading the journal (or watching a youtube vid) - i'm talking about working memory. The more stuff that goes on, the more memory it takes up and the more complicated (and therefore difficult) a fight becomes. For players who have large working memories the game is always going to be easier than players with smaller ones - and it's easy and difficult in a way that's not very discernible.

Ever met a player who tries hard but never "gets it" or a player who instantly gets anything effortlessly better than you do? That's why - it's a hardwired cognitive thing to do with how much new incoming information they can cope with on the fly.

For those players who are at their cap as far as working memory goes, each additional thing you add removes something else and therefore increases difficulty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hrm-rPSCIBw

Wish more people would get what you said because I wish people wouldn't put down others for "not getting" a fight. I mean, I don't think you should INVITE them, but goddamn there's some rude mothers out there. While the heroics in Cata weren't HARD for me, I can totally see how they could be considered hard for anyone who either didn't play during BC and wasn't used to all that, or for less skilled players or players with bad pugs and no Cesar Millan.

[xenogear3]

They kick you for a reason. And that reason is most of the time you.

Blizzard doesn't think that way.
It nerfed the heroics.
Added a cooldown timer for 4 guildees who kick people.
LFD group cannot invite people.
The people who got kicked often cannot be kicked

Finally, it made MoP heroics super easy.

I was upset first when I got kicked.
Then I saw how "overacted" Blizzard is.

[yjmark]

I actually quit partly due to Blizzard nerfing the 5 mans. I liked doing 5 mans. But since they nerfed the content so much (I even liked WOTLK 5 mans, even tho they were easy, they were not near THIS easy) I couldn't make myself come online whenever I did not raid. I used to do dungeons to my hearts content starting in Vanilla. I loved dungeoneering. Now this was taken away from me.

Challenge modes are significantly more difficult than the WotLK heroics. How can you claim that anything was taken away? It's still there. Unless you were simply referring to the fact that you have no friends in game to run dungeons with....but that has nothing to do with difficulty of heroics.

[moremana]

remember the whine fest on the Blizzard forums about Ozruk and bosses in BR?

Yes they were difficult in the beginning until Blizz nerfed them for the "stand in the fire" peeps.

[Sarevokcz]

early Cata heroics werent hard like the tBC ones (which, by the way, were hard mostly because of trash, bosses were usually cakewalk compared to some trashpacks), not even close, they just had unforgiving, but easily avoidable mechanics. Groups failed mostly because someone was bad and got oneshot by an ability or your healer plain sucked. I was clearing Cata heroics through LFD pugs since day 1 of Cata and never really got the feeling they were particurarly hard, just people were unfamiliar with mechanics or just were bad at moving out of stuff. QQing on forums how hard dungeons are after being idiot and not moving out of charge on GB 1st boss, letting add catch up to you on 3rd, letting 1st in stonecore hit you with the burrow attacks or tank not avoiding ozruks abilities? that had nothing to do with dungeons being hard. It was just about people being stupid.

And I can guarantee you, if LFD was there since day 1 of WotLK, people would have been wiping there too and blame dungeons for being hard, even tho most of the WotLK heroics were the pinnacle of easy content (pre MoP atleast.) The difference was, people were trade chat spamming LFM messages and picking people for their group, preferably people with alteast some reputation on their realm and not just random bads that LFD gave them, pretty similar how people were picking other for challenge modes.

[Akka]

Bullshit, they would have been a huge culture shock back in TBC where dungeon bosses had like one mechanic tops. The heroic bosses in Cataclysm had more complex mechanics than a lot of TBC raid bosses.

As you say : bullshit. You obviously either haven't played TBC, or got senile in the meantime and forgotten how it was.

Cata bosses weren't really more complex than TBC ones (maybe three to five abilities instead of two to four ? Not to count that in TBC, aggro was an important factor, unlike in anything since Wrath), and anyway the amount of abilities has little to do with the difficulty of a fight. Also, there isn't only bosses in instances, and TBC trash was quite important to the challenge (the fact you only think about bosses kind of hint how much easier the Cata trash was).

Anyway, the TBC heroics were on average quite harder than the Cata ones, despite the canned answers about irrelevant points like this one above.

They were simple, but things hit really hard. As a dpser I remember a lot of the challenge coming from that, the CCing, and controlling the threat. I've never used my target focus target's target macro like I did in TBC with the tanks. Several of the dps requirements were not lenient for pugs either.

Mechanically many of the dungeons since then have had more complicated, albeit generally less punishing, mechanics.

TBC had hard class mechanics. That's the huge difference. Tanks didn't have 600% threat and only paladins had good AoE. Healers didn't have tons of AoE smart heals. That's what made them really hard plus that they were unforgiving. If DPS got agro they would die unless the healer was well geared and focused.

I don't feel like more mechanics really make it that much harder.

Thank God we still have some people with an understanding of how it works.
These comments I subscribe fully.

Except Shattered Halls. Now that shit was hard for real.

And Arcatraz. And Blood Furnace. And CoT1. And CoT2. And...

And basically people who claim that TBC heroics weren't hard usually only talk about Mechanar, maybe Slave Pens, and/or of the heroics toward the end of the expansion, when they had been nerfed between three and five times and the badge gear was on par with T5 or T6.
And even then they were still less easy than Wrath/Pandaria/Cata-post-nerf ones.

[Vaelorian]

Call them whatever you like, it doesn't change what they are.

Your own estimates were that only 2 in 20 players play the game the way you say they should have. This means that 9 in 10 players (your own figures) found cata heroics too hard.

No I said they were players who just took their damn time to get raid ready. They were just toying around with normals and heroics alike whenever they felt like it. Only when we took them for a guildrun did they make the effort of doing heroics or normals. Otherwise they didn't care much.

They would have been raid ready or heroic ready tho in like 2 months time instead of the strict 1/2 weeks that I gave my guildies. So what I am saying is that if people including those recruits would want to do heroics, they should spent a lot of time doing normals first. It may take a while to get geared, but then it would be save to go do heroics. Now they just wanted to get carried or they took their damn time.

Yeah I agree that according to my numbers we had a very laid back player base. Honestly don't know what they did with their time since they weren't exactly running any dungeons unless we helped them.

But yeah I get your point. I do wish for a better playerbase. I can agree that everyone does stuff in their own pace. But when you join a guild knowing what the rules and expectations are, you would think that they would care to follow those.

- - - Updated - - -

Challenge modes are significantly more difficult than the WotLK heroics. How can you claim that anything was taken away? It's still there. Unless you were simply referring to the fact that you have no friends in game to run dungeons with....but that has nothing to do with difficulty of heroics.

I liked / tolerated the difficulty in WOTLK. I loved the big dungeons difficult dungeons. Challengemodes are at a nice level... sure. But 1 no loot. 2 it takes like what... 20 min a run? Thats not big at all... why bother? Mostly I just 2 dps manned heroics in WOTLK (not the new ones, I'll be honest).

[Oliria]

Stonecore at release, yiikees!

[yjmark]

I liked / tolerated the difficulty in WOTLK. I loved the big dungeons difficult dungeons. Challengemodes are at a nice level... sure. But 1 no loot. 2 it takes like what... 20 min a run? Thats not big at all... why bother? Mostly I just 2 dps manned heroics in WOTLK (not the new ones, I'll be honest).

The only reason older dungeons seemed bigger was that they had a ton more trash. So, you would basically like Blizz to add more trash to dungeons to make them bigger? Since you said the difficulty level is ok, and you just want to be in a dungeon longer. Am I understanding you correctly?

[Vaelorian]

The only reason older dungeons seemed bigger was that they had a ton more trash. So, you would basically like Blizz to add more trash to dungeons to make them bigger? Since you said the difficulty level is ok, and you just want to be in a dungeon longer. Am I understanding you correctly?

The difficulty level now is not ok. Except for challenge modes... But then the instance is too short. If bigger also means that there is more trash (+ trash that has a risk of pulling more trash) then yes. I am not there just to fight a boss in instances, I am there to conquer everything. Meanwhile I like loot because as an enchanter I can DE everything = profit too.

The best thing about WOTLK were actually the atmosphere, not the difficulty. While it was a huge step back already from TBC heroics, it was tolerable/likeable enough for me to grind them.

Bigger also means actually BIGGER = more room. Oh come on you know how TBC dungeons were. You know how vanilla dungeons were... (yeah I know some find vanilla dungeons too extreme, I loved those big ass instances).

[Deleted]

Were they hard for a guild group? Nah not really. Yes you needed CC and for a while it was early TBC wich was fine.

However for the average PUG group that tends to ignore mechanics...yea they were probably overtuned a bit.

[Deleted]

Get 85 early on my DK and ran them non stop with lfd/semi lfd (a dps or a couple more from someone I knew)

Was great, then managed to get healer to 85 too and ran them.

Then ran MoP "heroics" once and gave up.

[yjmark]

The difficulty level now is not ok. Except for challenge modes... But then the instance is too short. If bigger also means that there is more trash (+ trash that has a risk of pulling more trash) then yes. I am not there just to fight a boss in instances, I am there to conquer everything. Meanwhile I like loot because as an enchanter I can DE everything = profit too.

The best thing about WOTLK were actually the atmosphere, not the difficulty. While it was a huge step back already from TBC heroics, it was tolerable/likeable enough for me to grind them.

Bigger also means actually BIGGER = more room. Oh come on you know how TBC dungeons were. You know how vanilla dungeons were... (yeah I know some find vanilla dungeons too extreme, I loved those big ass instances).

So, hopefully everyone knows that MoP Challenge Modes are supposed to be the equivalent of heroics from previous expansions. Comparing heroics of previous expansions to heroics of MoP is not a fair comparison because they are not supposed to be the same. There are no normal mode max level dungeons. So, MoP "heroics" are actually taking the place of those.

I think people still get hung up on the terminology, and it causes them to get confused.

And I do agree that the vanilla and TBC dungeons were bigger (both physcially and in # of mobs to kill). imho, it would be nice if Blizz balanced things out and made some giant dungeons, and some smaller ones. LFD could split the big ones up into sections, but have Challenge Modes force you to do the whole thing. Kinda like LFR and regular raiding.

[Hypasonic]

I remember them very well, comparable to the TBC heroics. Only hard part about them per-say was the fact that CC was basically a requirement, however for most people this was something they were simply not used to using and as such many groups simply fell apart. Also boss abilities would easily one shot you if you didn't move or interrupt or the like. I remember literally being stuck in grim batol for over an hour multiple times, and then waiting for a new tank or healer.

I mainly tanked/healed them just because the 40m Q times were almost unbearable as DPS......

[Buttfear]

Before release I heard the new heroics were going to be "BC" hard, so I was excited.

Once 85 I ran them with guys I ran BC heroics with.

I ran them all once and was disappointed that they weren't more challenging

[Vaelorian]

So, hopefully everyone knows that MoP Challenge Modes are supposed to be the equivalent of heroics from previous expansions. Comparing heroics of previous expansions to heroics of MoP is not a fair comparison because they are not supposed to be the same. There are no normal mode max level dungeons. So, MoP "heroics" are actually taking the place of those.

I think people still get hung up on the terminology, and it causes them to get confused.

And I do agree that the vanilla and TBC dungeons were bigger (both physcially and in # of mobs to kill). imho, it would be nice if Blizz balanced things out and made some giant dungeons, and some smaller ones. LFD could split the big ones up into sections, but have Challenge Modes force you to do the whole thing. Kinda like LFR and regular raiding.

Oooh exactly this. I mean I don't mind if there are some easy/small ones. But what about harder bigger ones? excellent.

No one would be taking away content and everyone could be happy.

[Acidbaron]

All it required was not trying to pull the whole lot and aoe tanking them, 1 crowd control and one marked dps target actually made them very doable.

But at that point majority of the casual crowd was used to not thinking and just doing something else but playing when in a dungeon due to Wraths 'aoe spam fest' that a lot of people struggled if you had a clueless tank in and seeing how much the crowd likes to complain instead of giving advice to their fellow team members. Yeah they didn't get far.

I did all of them in greens/blues in the first week and it was highly entertaining and even with pugs later, after two wipes they understood they had to listen.

I remember the big mobs in deadmines could actually bring a tank in starter gear to 50% health in just two swings, shame such dungeons in WoW are something of the past.

Personally they should have sticked to their guns, people would've learned and dungeons now would've been far more entertaining to do.

[Vaelorian]

All it required was not trying to pull the whole lot and aoe tanking them, 1 crowd control and one marked dps target actually made them very doable.

But at that point majority of the casual crowd was used to not thinking and just doing something else but playing when in a dungeon due to Wraths 'aoe spam fest' that a lot of people struggled if you had a clueless tank in and seeing how much the crowd likes to complain instead of giving advice to their fellow team members. Yeah they didn't get far.

I did all of them in greens/blues in the first week and it was highly entertaining and even with pugs later, after two wipes they understood they had to listen.

I remember the big mobs in deadmines could actually bring a tank in starter gear to 50% health in just two swings, shame such dungeons in WoW are something of the past.

Personally they should have sticked to their guns, people would've learned and dungeons now would've been far more entertaining to do.

Haha yeah I remember warning people in pugs: look this needs to be done XYZ way.

responds: nah mate just AoE it's easy!

After the 2nd wipe.... errr lets CC then... who will mark?

[Belisaurio]

Bigger also means actually BIGGER = more room. Oh come on you know how TBC dungeons were. You know how vanilla dungeons were... (yeah I know some find vanilla dungeons too extreme, I loved those big ass instances).

+1!!!

So, hopefully everyone knows that MoP Challenge Modes are supposed to be the equivalent of heroics from previous expansions. Comparing heroics of previous expansions to heroics of MoP is not a fair comparison because they are not supposed to be the same. There are no normal mode max level dungeons. So, MoP "heroics" are actually taking the place of those.

I don't see challenge modes like that. I mean, for progress in MoP we are doing:
Leveling (quests)--->Dungeons/scenarios--->max lvl--->H.Dungeons/H.Scenarios--->Raid LFR---->Raid Normal--->Raid Hardmode.

I see that 5 of 7 path have a really close difficult-mode. This is not a good progression, and now, I think that it's too late to try something different. I find challenge- modes out of the progression path, like battle pets. It's not required for anything and belong to "mini-games of wow" thing.

So, knowing that, I can't see any similar about challenge modes and heroic dungeons (maybe, in some cases, the difficult, but only in some cases). In BC (I'm not saying that was the Golden Age or anything), the progression path was more logic:
leveling (quests)--->Leveling (group quests)---->dungeons---->max level---->H.Dungeons---->raids (10 man) /////Hard H. Dungeons---->Raids (25 man).

This are 4 different difficult modes in the same progression path. So every step that you did, was a real progression in everything, not just ilvl. Of course that system has a lot of fails, but we can compare H.Dungeons (BC) vs H.Dungeons (MoP) and challenge modes can't be compared because are out the main panorama.

[Clevername]

first few weeks i remember multiple pugs getting roflstomped by ozruck