[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion Pt. 2

[Deleted]

Weird I'm only one who picked EF for holy paladins? oh surely thats makes me hot class like priests, shammy's, monks, druids :/

[Thumbtacks]

I'm in the process of leveling a holy pally. I should be 90 before 5.4 hits, but at this point is it even worth it? Everyone I talk to seems to be telling me they're going to be incredibly shit and if I get into raids at all I'll be stuck with lfr and even then I won't get further than LFR. Just how bad is it?

[Deleted]

@Tagzz

I don't think anyone has ever said that Paladins are doomed in 10 man since the SH change to include Holy Radiance. I think a lot more people complained about the engaging part of the HS+J+HR+LOD x infinity and beyond . No matter what happens in the fight LoD hits 60% of the raid in 10 man, and is easily able to refresh and supplement shields. We have 60% mastery with one amplification trinket@ilvl 550. Do you really expect us to do bad on PTR fights,many of them without intense healing requirements in 10 man?Even SS goes on 30% of a 10 man raid. I personally commented a lot on how EF is truly dead because its a fact that LoD>EF in the current PTR build(yes if you use EF on the PTR you're doing it wrong).

Obviously 25 man logs are the deal breaker, but there is also the aspect of PTR+Logs+Grain of Salt. Monk numbers were bullshit in the last 2 heroic testings, but none cared because they knew the nerfs would be reverted. Resto Druids Glyph of Efflorescence is disabled atm because of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp8AbVux088 . There are no timers out there which makes Spirit shell significantly weaker. Many bosses were quite the match for the guilds testing them, was looking over some Malkorok log with a Paladin doing 495k hps, but his raid wiped @ the first implosions over and over and he was using GoAK on pull(and just spam healing the melee, disregarding the barrier hp cap). You don't discuss healer balance on Jin'rokh, none cares about it.
I hope you can agree that our current live version(with EF speced) is stronger then our current PTR version(with SH 3k mana specced) at least?

I also disagree on the tank healing aspect . Yesterday on Garrosh the numbers for tank healing were in the lines of 45% Prot Paladin tank, 20% myself, 16% Holy Priest, 14% Resto Druid offspec(don't ask why Pacteh wanted to heal Garrosh).


PS middle pack on 10man is the last position :P

[nightfalls]

I'm in the process of leveling a holy pally. I should be 90 before 5.4 hits, but at this point is it even worth it? Everyone I talk to seems to be telling me they're going to be incredibly shit and if I get into raids at all I'll be stuck with lfr and even then I won't get further than LFR. Just how bad is it?

Remains to be seen.

A year ago I would have said to play whatever class you like RP-wise and not pay attention to the actual spec/abilities, but well, druids were so bad in T14 I had to drop mine.

A month ago I would have said to play whatever class has the best playstyle for you and not pay attention to numbers, but EF and SH rotations are two different worlds so what you "like" today might not be your class tomorrow.

[Deleted]

I'm in the process of leveling a holy pally. I should be 90 before 5.4 hits, but at this point is it even worth it? Everyone I talk to seems to be telling me they're going to be incredibly shit and if I get into raids at all I'll be stuck with lfr and even then I won't get further than LFR. Just how bad is it?

Holy is getting buff expect from HoT we having on talent tier 3 apparently its very big nerf, its not. Every guild will bring you if you have gear and skill so ye nothing to worry about and for me holy plays nicely

[Dubalicious]

I personally commented a lot on how EF is truly dead because its a fact that LoD>EF in the current PTR build(yes if you use EF on the PTR you're doing it wrong).

So EF is dead, SH's efficiency is gone, and SS covers 12% of a 25 man raid - you're still taking SS/SH 100% of the time?

[E] and just a personal note, I used EF for Garrosh testing because I didn't see the point in testing 2 talents that aren't in an "implementable" state on the PTR. While Sacred Shield was pretty strong on the few attempts I used it on, trying to get comfortable with a talent that will never exist in that particular form seemed silly. The charges will be huge for QoL once they're implemented. My 2 cents regarding "doing it wrong" =p

[Awakes]

Holy is getting buff expect from HoT we having on talent tier 3 apparently its very big nerf, its not. Every guild will bring you if you have gear and skill so ye nothing to worry about and for me holy plays nicely

What buff may I ask? cause with the once we've gotten so far... I dont see that big a deal in buff.. We are okayiees in 10 man.. simple cause LoD covers 60% of the raid.. the playstyle is still boring tho..
25 Man.. Still looking forward to some complete logs that can give us a clear inside..

[nightfalls]

So EF is dead, SH's efficiency is gone, and SS covers 12% of a 25 man raid - you're still taking SS/SH 100% of the time?

To see how big the nerf actually will be I was debating running an LoD build this week in raid, but I realized that to be honest on trivial content (which EF will likely overheal), you're not actually seeing the full impact.

[jincuteguy]

So EF is dead, SH's efficiency is gone, and SS covers 12% of a 25 man raid - you're still taking SS/SH 100% of the time?

[E] and just a personal note, I used EF for Garrosh testing because I didn't see the point in testing 2 talents that aren't in an "implementable" state on the PTR. While Sacred Shield was pretty strong on the few attempts I used it on, trying to get comfortable with a talent that will never exist in that particular form seemed silly. The charges will be huge for QoL once they're implemented. My 2 cents regarding "doing it wrong" =p

They not gonna change anything to SS and EF at this point and 5.4 will hit live really soon.

[Dubalicious]

They not gonna change anything to SS and EF at this point and 5.4 will hit live really soon.

SS didn't have the "3 charges" implemented and Judgment didn't have the increased mana cost implemented at the time of testing (which means SH wasn't in it's presumed "Live" version). SS without the charges was mostly a "this isn't worth getting used to for an hour long test" which was entirely a personal preference decision.

[paladative]

Here is my idea of this tier:

EF becomes a baseline of Holy. EF: Will heal the target(s) of WoG or LoD for 5 ticks: 20%/16%12%/8%/4% of the direct healing done each second, these ticks will scale with haste but will not give additional tick, and will not scale with crit or mastery.

The option C for Tier 45: Share the Love and Burden. Lay on Hands now heals every raid member within 100 y for 30% of the paladins max health, and cooldown is reduced to 5 min. Forbearance will be applied only on the paladin. Holy shield now place a 10y diameter shell on the ground, all raid members entering and staying in the zone is granted immunity, but forbearance will be applied only on the paladin.

[Deleted]

What buff may I ask? cause with the once we've gotten so far... I dont see that big a deal in buff.. We are okayiees in 10 man.. simple cause LoD covers 60% of the raid.. the playstyle is still boring tho..
25 Man.. Still looking forward to some complete logs that can give us a clear inside..

Sanctity of Battle now also affects the cooldown of Holy Shock.
Divine Plea no longer reduces the amount of healing done, and now restores mana based on the Paladin’s Spirit.
Holy Insight now increases the effectiveness of Eternal Flame, Light of Dawn, and Word of Glory by 35%. Effectiveness of other heals are still increased by 25%.
Sanctified Wrath
Holy: Now also increases the critical strike chance of Holy Shock by 20%.
you can't compare 10m vs 25m and yes LoD is stronger on 10m on25m not so, thats why we have more healers

[Freia]

Sanctity of Battle now also affects the cooldown of Holy Shock.
Divine Plea no longer reduces the amount of healing done, and now restores mana based on the Paladin’s Spirit.
Holy Insight now increases the effectiveness of Eternal Flame, Light of Dawn, and Word of Glory by 35%. Effectiveness of other heals are still increased by 25%.
Sanctified Wrath
Holy: Now also increases the critical strike chance of Holy Shock by 20%.
you can't compare 10m vs 25m and yes LoD is stronger on 10m on25m not so, thats why we have more healers

And those buffs do not make up for the output we lost with the EF nerf. And most healers have cooldowns (and in the case of shaman rotational heals) that scale in 25m. Have you even been paying attention?

[tyo07]

with haste changes, will paladin move toward haste in 5.4?better holy power generation, more hp spent in same time, thoughts?

[Deleted]

And those buffs do not make up for the output we lost with the EF nerf. And most healers have cooldowns (and in the case of shaman rotational heals) that scale in 25m. Have you even been paying attention?

ye i agree we don't have good raid cd, dev aura is useless really and you can't relay on 1 spell if EF really strong it means its op then and blizzard did they job to even out the talents and the current SS on 5.4 is 100% stronger then EF on this current patch

[Dubalicious]

with haste changes, will paladin move toward haste in 5.4?better holy power generation, more hp spent in same time, thoughts?

Mostly an opinion, but spirit will allow you to generate more HoPo over an extended period of time than haste will - builders are still quite expensive. Haste was looking like it would be the way to go before the most recent changes to Selfless Healer (judgement cost upped from 3k to 7.2k)

[Awakes]

Sanctity of Battle now also affects the cooldown of Holy Shock.
Divine Plea no longer reduces the amount of healing done, and now restores mana based on the Paladin’s Spirit.
Holy Insight now increases the effectiveness of Eternal Flame, Light of Dawn, and Word of Glory by 35%. Effectiveness of other heals are still increased by 25%.
Sanctified Wrath
Holy: Now also increases the critical strike chance of Holy Shock by 20%.
you can't compare 10m vs 25m and yes LoD is stronger on 10m on25m not so, thats why we have more healers

Well Sanctified Wraft is rarely if not at all being picked by Holy Paladin so I dont see that as much of a buff...

The 35% buff to LoD, EF and WoG just made LoD more mandatory for us to use... which made our playstyle more cluncky..

The Divine plea is a bandage for the nerf to Holy Insight mana regen.. which from what I've seen dont do half the amount of MP5 as Holy Insight did..

The sanctity was cool no doubt.. but from Peoples thoughts and so on. We can only do that with SH... and since they made the mana cost bigger on Judgment.. I dont know if haste is still that viable with SH... cause before we reforged our spirit to haste... which we cant now...

Sure you followed this threat from the start mate ?

[Freia]

ye i agree we don't have good raid cd, dev aura is useless really and you can't relay on 1 spell if EF really strong it means its op then and blizzard did they job to even out the talents and the current SS on 5.4 is 100% stronger then EF on this current patch

5.4 Sacred Shield is not stronger than 5.3 Eternal Flame.

[Shuttle]

Shame this isn't a change.

[Deleted]

ye i agree we don't have good raid cd, dev aura is useless really and you can't relay on 1 spell if EF really strong it means its op then and blizzard did they job to even out the talents and the current SS on 5.4 is 100% stronger then EF on this current patch

I don't know what kind of guild you're in but saying that devo is useless is just wrong. When you're progressing on bosses that have huge aoe damage like dark animus or lei shen and you're raid has a really low health pool devo is probably one of the best raid CD there is. Sure it would be awesome if it worked on phys damage as well but saying its useless is just stupid