[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion Pt. 2

[Lithiyum]

What i would like to see is perhaps a chart for how much haste is required to get judgment and holy shock down to 5,4.5, and 4 seconds cd. (Someone on here said they were running with about 20% haste, getting around a 5 second HS, but id like some more concrete numbers.) After that im sure that many paladins will be looking to meet this haste cap and then stack mastery there after for mana sustainability. As stated in the thread haste is a sink hole for mana and mastery works very well with mana, maybe we can reach some sort of middle ground where mana doesnt feel strained and we still get the shorter cds for J and HS. Assuming most healers will run SH like myself. Needless to say this should be a very interesting tier for us. I am a huge fan of many of the changes going on right now with holy pally and am very excited to play in this upcoming tier, i hope you all feel the same!

[Sellinz]

your right I shouldn't have typed that and has been deleted

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As someone already stated the haste build in the chart is actually higher it's just a mana sink hole. I didn't say crit was better I said it was better for healing thorough put or HPS. I also said in current tier it was too random and unreliable. I was curious if with the new stat weights crit couldn't be more viable, like fire mages in current tier. A table to compare would be nice but it would still be random so maybe no viable readings can be made but it would be nice just to see the potential.

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I never ment to imply mastery was garbage i'm obviously stacked in it now. I can see how that came off that way and maybe i'll edit that a bit to seem more friendly. Crit shielding over mastery is a little different . It's def not reliable at least atm but has the potential to put up a full shield on a target instantly rather then trying to build them which we just have less time to do now. There isn't enough crit currently to even try this tier so I was curious about next patch.

@the first bit, no worries healing is a stressful job and when nerfs happen that make the job even more difficult I can imagine frustration.

@second &third bits, you summed it up with 'It is too random' and I feel it is exactly that, we don't have a Divine Aegis mechanic, or whatever the resto shaman thing is that causes them to gain mana from crits (they still do that I think?) I feel mastery is going to remain extremely powerful compared to our other secondaries no matter what talent you end up

[Deleted]

What i would like to see is perhaps a chart for how much haste is required to get judgment and holy shock down to 5,4.5, and 4 seconds cd.

I posted them a long time ago in the previous thread that got locked http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...3#post21834063.

[paladative]

I posted them a long time ago in the previous thread that got locked http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...3#post21834063.

Do you buy GC's statement, that SH is hps boost?

[Deleted]

Do you buy GC's statement, that SH is hps boost?

There is a spreadsheet in this thread about hps of different T45 talents.

No one has to buy anything.

[Lithiyum]

I posted them a long time ago in the previous thread that got locked http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...3#post21834063.

Very helpful kolori! however is there a chart or maybe i can math it out myself that shows the value needed via gear when you have a haste buff in raid? my guild runs with boomkins and spriests galore so those numbers, while helpful, only give a raw number required.

I thank you very much and appreciate all your work Kolori, really great!

Thanks!

[Ascended2210]

Very helpful kolori! however is there a chart or maybe i can math it out myself that shows the value needed via gear when you have a haste buff in raid? my guild runs with boomkins and spriests galore so those numbers, while helpful, only give a raw number required.

I thank you very much and appreciate all your work Kolori, really great!

Thanks!

Spell haste (boomkin/spriest raid buff) and melee attack speed (raid buff) does not lower it. Lust/hero & GoAK should reduce the CD but divine favour should not.

Edit:
Looking at that chart our old T14 4p was worth 21,250 haste. Quite over budget i'd say, but made holy much more fun to play.

[Deleted]

Very helpful kolori! however is there a chart or maybe i can math it out myself that shows the value needed via gear when you have a haste buff in raid? my guild runs with boomkins and spriests galore so those numbers, while helpful, only give a raw number required.

I thank you very much and appreciate all your work Kolori, really great!

Thanks!

Any chart or spreadsheet I post includes full raid buffs, why would I make something that does not account for them? it would be worthless.

Do you buy GC's statement, that SH is hps boost?

I can't find this where did he say it? SH is an hps increase in the sense that it's very mana efficient and lets you run with much lower spirit and thus alot more secondary stats. With equal stats it's far below the other talents.

[paladative]

I can't find this where did he say it? SH is an hps increase in the sense that it's very mana efficient and lets you run with much lower spirit and thus alot more secondary stats. With equal stats it's far below the other talents.

In a twitter right before Jdgmt mana cost was increased, he says SH is supposed to be a hps boost, not a mana efficiency boost. So now SH is completely crap, right?

[nightfalls]

In a twitter right before Jdgmt mana cost was increased, he says SH is supposed to be a hps boost, not a mana efficiency boost. So now SH is completely crap, right?

Well, they come hand in hand. SH is probably never going to be an HPS boost, if anything it would be best off as a PvP talent for creating more short casts/instants.

Another way of making it more of a raid oriented talent is to put an increased HPS boost on the 1st charge of SH.

[Deleted]

So for a SH rotation will something like J-HS-HR-LoD-J-HR-HS-LoD to gain the best benefit for Daybreak stacks? I can see getting to about a 5 second cd on J and HS will be atainable with a Mastery-Haste-Spirit build. Switching the 2nd half around so its J-HS-HR whilst giving us the chance of getting a Infusion proc for the HR following HR will not be as reliable as the extra stack of healing for Daybreak as far as I can tell.

[Simulacrum]

So for a SH rotation will something like J-HS-HR-LoD-J-HR-HS-LoD to gain the best benefit for Daybreak stacks?

I don't see how the order in which you cast anything has any impact upon how well-utilized your procs are, as long as you cast things on cooldown? Unless your rotation has broken down to the point where these discussions are irrelevant to the situation, you'll never be able to cast two holy shocks in a row without throwing in a HR somewhere, nor will you be able to cast more than two HRs in a row, so both daybreak and infusion of light will always give you as good of a benefit as is possible.

[Sellinz]

Cleave doing like 6% of my healing on Thok, lol pretty good

[Deleted]

Based on the testing today heres what needs to be done:
Guardian range increased to 40 yards.
Judgement range increased to 40 yards.
Judgement always generate holy power.
Selfless healer turns judgement into a smart heal (needs to do aprox the same healing of a HS).
Light of Dawn range increased to 40 yards - its too fucking hard to judge whether or not you are in range for when its 30 yards.
Sacred Shield needs to be off global cooldown and cost no mana.
Sacred Shield needs to scale with Mastery.
Eternal Flame needs to add double the Illuminated healing on application, maybe a 10% hot nerf.

The way our abilities scale on PTR atm is fucking awful, one talent doesnt work with mastery the other only partially, guardian and the cleave trinket both has terrible range which means they will be way too good in some situations and garbage in others.

[Martinczo]

I retract this statement.

[Kyuuseishu]

Just as a note before people go mental saying SS has been nerfed, its the number application for the 30% reduction in absorb for ret and prot. It is in the official patch notes.

[nightfalls]

Based on the testing today heres what needs to be done:
Guardian range increased to 40 yards.
Judgement range increased to 40 yards.
Judgement always generate holy power.
Selfless healer turns judgement into a smart heal (needs to do aprox the same healing of a HS).
Light of Dawn range increased to 40 yards - its too fucking hard to judge whether or not you are in range for when its 30 yards.
Sacred Shield needs to be off global cooldown and cost no mana.
Sacred Shield needs to scale with Mastery.
Eternal Flame needs to add double the Illuminated healing on application, maybe a 10% hot nerf.

The way our abilities scale on PTR atm is fucking awful, one talent doesnt work with mastery the other only partially, guardian and the cleave trinket both has terrible range which means they will be way too good in some situations and garbage in others.

Agreed with most of this. Especially SS costing a GCD makes it extremely clunky for a 45 talent.

[Isheria]

Kinda an off-topic post but after doing a new round of ptr testing with a holy paladin in my group if anything holy paladins need nerfs now not buffs since they are borderline overpowered (in a 10-man setting at least) after the latest round of buffs, yet ppl here are asking for even more buffs.

[dragconus]

Kinda an off-topic post but after doing a new round of ptr testing with a holy paladin in my group if anything holy paladins need nerfs now not buffs since they are borderline overpowered (in a 10-man setting at least) after the latest round of buffs, yet ppl here are asking for even more buffs.

anyone not a pally would say that . that's why we always get nerfed lol

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Cleave doing like 6% of my healing on Thok, lol pretty good

I herd about the cleave healing but i'm unaware how to get it or it's function...do u need to be in melee range of the target? or is it just the first few people it hits?

[mcbubble]

Kinda an off-topic post but after doing a new round of ptr testing with a holy paladin in my group if anything holy paladins need nerfs now not buffs since they are borderline overpowered (in a 10-man setting at least) after the latest round of buffs, yet ppl here are asking for even more buffs.

We're great in 10m, and you're right, probably a little too strong since you can SS 3 players and IH 6 with LOD. You basically will have 90% of the raid always covered.
The problem is going to be 25m.
Aladya from your guild is always commenting here, stating that we're really bad in a 25m environment, but great in 10m.