[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion Pt. 2

[bouchbagfett]

I went back on the PTR and got myself a Kings, Mastery, Haste, Spell Power, Flask, and Food Buff. I put together a Mastery/Spirit and Haste Spirit Set and looked at all the healing values for each spell. I took my average over-heal numbers from Live/PTR and applied it to my healing table that takes into consideration Beacon, Illuminated Healing, LvL 90 talent. I then ran the numbers per rotation. Note: You will see each rotation has a partial Prism/Sacred Shield as they have longer CD’s than the rotation so each rotation gets a percent of the Prism/Sacred Shield Use. Other than looking at the healing numbers for each spec and haste/mastery I also looked at number of Holy Radiance and Light of Dawn targets.



I think there are 2 main points here:

1. Haste is scaling better than Mastery in both SS and EF and there is little difference between the two with SH.
2. Eternal Flame is not reliant on stacked healing and even maximally stacked EF performs better than SS/SH.

Less Major points but other things I found when looking at the numbers were:

A. A 0% over-heal LoD on 6 targets is equal to a 50% over-heal Eternal Flame.
B. Amplification trinket with raid buffs added 1-2% on Mastery/Haste totals.
C. Maintaining a double holy radiance rotation adds 7-8k HPS bonus due to the 2nd stack of Day Break (accounting for the high over-heal).
D. HPS rankings for heals are: EF > Prism > Sacred Shield > LoD > WoG > Flash of Light > Holy Shock > Holy Radiance > Divine Light > Holy Light

What I didn’t get to look at was a Gem/Reforge out of Spirit bulid for SH. PTR when down so that is a later project but I only see that build being competitive with stacked fights and a 2nd set of gear.

You can look at my wall of chart at: http://fullspectrumholypally.wordpress.com/

[zepyjoe]

With the recent nerfs caused by the lag bug(poor programming) I think there a fair chance a mastery buff might be coming..
A HR cap of 6 will have to be made up somewhere.

- - - Updated - - -

I hopped on PTR briefly last night to test exactly this, and Light's Hammer WAS working with GoAK. Did not test the other two.

HP and LH is buggy with GoTAK only works when in group.

GotAK on ptr only matches the heal you cast, no extra like on live,
it now works with HR and LOD but it lost its splash heal and only last for 15 sec.

[PosPosPos]

It's a tough comparison, how often do you pop DF with GoAK and spam Holy Radiance for 15 seconds on live? Seems realistic that you could get off 5-6 HR's during a single 5.4 GoAK which is ~1/3 of our mana pool in a very short period of time. Sure, there is potential to burn through mana with live GoAK, but I'm not sure I see that being an issue at all with it's current form.

5.3 sample rotation: HS(GoAK trigger 1) -> HR -> HR -> EF (GoAK trigger 2) -> HS (GoAK trigger 3) -> HR -> HR -> EF (GoAK trigger 4) -> HS (GoAK trigger 5) -> HR(5 stack hasted) -> HR(5 stack hasted) -> EF -> HS -> HR (5 stack hasted) -> HR (5 stack hasted) -> GoAK haste buff ends

5.4 GoAK - Doubt it's going to be efficient to spam 5-6 radiances purely, without casting shock or finishers

HS -> HR -> HR -> EF/LoD -> HS -> HR -> HR -> EF/LoD -> HS -> end GoAK is probably what we might be looking at, if I am not mistaken.

[Sashwa]

Okay, so for a 10m holy paladin, how are we looking? What's our talent set up with the legendary cloak? From the spreadsheet a few posts above it looks like EF with haste build is king, and I read that EF procs the cloak a fair bit. However, I am very interested to see how SH (when reforged for throughput and not spirit) works out. I've done some testing on the PTR, but with gear scaled down so far it's hard to get an accurate scaling. I did 130k hps using SH (not reforged out of spirit) scaled down to 520 ilvl on Nurushen(or however you spell it) on flex raid testing. So I imagine that when adding the legendary cloak, and an addition 30 ilvls (and appropriate reforges) that this number would go up significantly. When trying to use EF/SS my numbers were not nearly that high.

[Floopa]

We're okay.

You're better than okay. You're probably the second best healer at the moment in 25 mans.

[Peachpies]

You're better than okay. You're probably the second best healer at the moment in 25 mans.

how do you manage to arrive at that conclusion

[Awakes]

You're better than okay. You're probably the second best healer at the moment in 25 mans.

Huh?
Unless other healer classes have had some major nerf i dont see This as possible.
EF have gotten a nerf to the masterie side. But a buff to the healing, thats gonna be snipe no matter what, i'm gonna Call bullshit ón you're claim.

[Floopa]

how do you manage to arrive at that conclusion

By testing 25 man heroic and seeing Paladins below Shamans and above every other healer.

[Peachpies]

By testing 25 man heroic and seeing Paladins below Shamans and above every other healer.

that is not a very good metric to use, if we are going by something like that you could have whatever healer you wanted in whichever place you wanted just by picking the fights that suited your opinion.

[PosPosPos]

By testing 25 man heroic and seeing Paladins below Shamans and above every other healer.

Uh yeah, and where exactly are said logs from testing? Unsupported statements do not a legitimate claim make.

[Floopa]

At the moment I believe it's like this: Shaman > Paladins > Druids => Monks (tranquility vs revival QQ) > Priests (either spec).

[Tiberria]

that is not a very good metric to use, if we are going by something like that you could have whatever healer you wanted in whichever place you wanted just by picking the fights that suited your opinion.

Pretty much everything he has said about class balance (and he trolls other class forums with the same foolishness) has been contrary to what public logs and common knowledge shows. I suggest ignoring him until he actually backs it up with logs. Even if it is Method, and even if he did make the logs public, logs from one guild aren't a good indication of class balance anyway. They can as easily be an indication of skill differences between individual players and of how certain specs play out with certain raid comps.

[Deleted]

At the moment I believe it's like this: Shaman > Paladins > Druids => Monks (tranquility vs revival QQ) > Priests (either spec).

Floopa can you just leave this forum alone. Other than the fact you consistently like to post 'your class is fine so stop qq'ing' on every forum but your own in some veiled (but totally transparent) attempt to steer ppl to your agenda, you have no evidence.

The simplest example, and one I think is a problem with PTR testing generally, is that most logs are not of kills and more often than not consist of wipes between 2-5 mins.

Most ppl in PTR (with the expectation that they are NOT going to actually kill the boss just get as far as poss), blow all their CDs earlier than they might otherwise.

- and yes, the current paladin CDs are pretty good now (but not the best), and when stacking all 3 (or 4) you can do some pretty crazy burst, in the right situation. that can seriously skew the hps logs to paladins' favour.

That does not mean paladins are 'the 2nd best healer'.

Take a look at the type of boss mechanics / positionings there are - druids and monks are well suited to almost all bosses and will shine this tier I imagine.

I really don't know which is the 'best healer' for next tier now, but I can see a lot more bosses where taking 2x druid, or 2x monk, makes a lot more sense than 2x paladin. In fact am not sure what boss would be a good candidate for ever taking 2x paladin - perhaps Thok with a SH/haste build, but that's a pretty unique healing encounter in P1.

Am talking 25hc expectations, not 10hc.

Am sure there are others who can provide some more empirical data to back up claims, but you are definitely not one of them.

-----------

My biggest gripe has been that our spells to date have not been used for their original design purpose, and we bring the same utility as other paladin specs.

We've used an expensive supposedly AOE spell (HR) purely for HP generation, even if its on 1 person. This will continue.
We've blanketed the raid with EF for shields, now it will be for the cloak proc. No change to our playstyle there then Ghostcrawler....
We still have nothing unique in our utility to separate us from a ret or prot paladin.

[Sashwa]

Okay, so for a 10m holy paladin, how are we looking? What's our talent set up with the legendary cloak? From the spreadsheet a few posts above it looks like EF with haste build is king, and I read that EF procs the cloak a fair bit. However, I am very interested to see how SH (when reforged for throughput and not spirit) works out. I've done some testing on the PTR, but with gear scaled down so far it's hard to get an accurate scaling. I did 130k hps using SH (not reforged out of spirit) scaled down to 520 ilvl on Nurushen(or however you spell it) on flex raid testing. So I imagine that when adding the legendary cloak, and an addition 30 ilvls (and appropriate reforges) that this number would go up significantly. When trying to use EF/SS my numbers were not nearly that high.

anyone have answers to this?

[xiloclipse]

anyone have answers to this?

Was this the most recent flex or the first, ie pre or post SH nerf? SH doesn't benefit from the cloak as much as EF, and I would expect it to mostly shine in stacked situations while EF can cover either. I would also expect to see SH gain some ground on EF on fights/comps where IH is stronger. I am not sure how the HR change will influence SH, but I'm guessing fewer targets for a powered up SH HR won't be better than before. Also HPS on norushen will depend on how much corruption each of the healers have

[mofobagins]

Sasha,

10man HPally is looking very strong. I cant give you a ranking of where they stand compared to other healers (I'm sure someone else can), but it is looking like most healers are fairly even in 10man. The best 2-heal comp is looking to be Disc/Druid with MW being very strong as well since they are stupid in 10man. I would think Hpally is right behind those 3 (maybe ahead on some fights). For thouroughput, EF is still the best talent with mastery stacking. SS is good to in 10man but the rotation is clunky and feels wierd to use (maybe ebcause I am just used to EF build). If you can support the mana for it, haste build for EF and SS provide slightly better thouroughput. for progression, i would still go for mastery build though because absorbs > raw healing for progressiion.

Of course you had better thouroughput with SH when reforged out of spirit. With gear scaling down, you do not have a lot of mastery or haste while still keeping enough spirit for EF or SS builds. This is greatly affect your HPS. Also, just as an FYI, 130 HPS isnt great, especially when you look at the druid, monk, and shaman in your gruip doing 2-3x as much healing.

These are just from my perspective. I am a 25man raider and have not tested 10man myself on the PTR, just seen various logs. In 25man, it looks like we are only ahead of both priest specs at the moment (this is before the HR player cap was added and the guardian change) so not quite sure with these changes. Holy priest is the lowest healer atm with disc slightly ahead. Disc however will always be brought to a raid due to their insane utility, i.e spirit shell.

Please corret me if I am wrong so i would like to knoww exactly where we stand as well. like i said, these are just my thoughts on this.

[pallyopness]

I went back on the PTR and got myself a Kings, Mastery, Haste, Spell Power, Flask, and Food Buff. I put together a Mastery/Spirit and Haste Spirit Set and looked at all the healing values for each spell. I took my average over-heal numbers from Live/PTR and applied it to my healing table that takes into consideration Beacon, Illuminated Healing, LvL 90 talent. I then ran the numbers per rotation. Note: You will see each rotation has a partial Prism/Sacred Shield as they have longer CD’s than the rotation so each rotation gets a percent of the Prism/Sacred Shield Use. Other than looking at the healing numbers for each spec and haste/mastery I also looked at number of Holy Radiance and Light of Dawn targets.



I think there are 2 main points here:

1. Haste is scaling better than Mastery in both SS and EF and there is little difference between the two with SH.
2. Eternal Flame is not reliant on stacked healing and even maximally stacked EF performs better than SS/SH.

Less Major points but other things I found when looking at the numbers were:

A. A 0% over-heal LoD on 6 targets is equal to a 50% over-heal Eternal Flame.
B. Amplification trinket with raid buffs added 1-2% on Mastery/Haste totals.
C. Maintaining a double holy radiance rotation adds 7-8k HPS bonus due to the 2nd stack of Day Break (accounting for the high over-heal).
D. HPS rankings for heals are: EF > Prism > Sacred Shield > LoD > WoG > Flash of Light > Holy Shock > Holy Radiance > Divine Light > Holy Light

What I didn’t get to look at was a Gem/Reforge out of Spirit bulid for SH. PTR when down so that is a later project but I only see that build being competitive with stacked fights and a 2nd set of gear.

You can look at my wall of chart at: http://fullspectrumholypally.wordpress.com/

LOL!! so let me get this straight....after all the trouble Blizz went through to nerf EF it still ends up being the best compared to other choices...looks like all pallies will stay with EF....Project Nerf EF failed......

[Deleted]

So Spirit + Haste > Spirit + Mastery now?

[Pasture]

LOL!! so let me get this straight....after all the trouble Blizz went through to nerf EF it still ends up being the best compared to other choices...looks like all pallies will stay with EF....Project Nerf EF failed......

Well it depends on overheal percentages. Right now the overheal is irrelevant. It's all about rolling mastery. With that mechanic gone the overheal component becomes much more relevant. Arguably in 10 man the most effective way of rolling mastery is LoD now. If you're rolling mastery with LoD then you don't have HP for EF.

[Lumineux]

So Spirit + Haste > Spirit + Mastery now?

I'm not so sure about that, because even though haste looks pretty on paper, it requires a lot more mana regen to sustain since you are casting spells at a faster rate. And considering our spells are far more expensive than any other classes (because it accounts for our mastery), it just ends up not being as feasible.

I don't know the actual mana regen required for a haste build. I know a while ago in the other thread there were numbers posted that a haste build required an unrealistic amount of regen, but that was before they cut the cost of Holy Shock in half.

It would kind of suck if haste was better than mastery now, since in this tiers gear they basically spoon fed us mastery on every single gear slot. Not only that but our 4 piece even gives us 4500 mastery, lol.