[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion Pt. 2

[Pasture]

If you can support the mana for it, haste build for EF and SS provide slightly better thouroughput.

We will be able to support it mana wise in 5.4. With the extra spirit, the Plea buff and the HS mana buff I don't think we will need to worry too much about mana. After all, mastery build needlessly spams for shields so it is anything but mana efficient.

Remember too that our mana now scales with haste. The HS change probably counteracts a decent portion of the additional mana from spells now that it has a cooldown reduced by haste.

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So Spirit + Haste > Spirit + Mastery now?

Haste is higher hps. Mastery has the benefit of increasing effective health / sniping. It depends what you're going for.

[Lumineux]

After all, mastery build needlessly spams for shields so it is anything but mana efficient.

Except whether you stack haste or mastery, the rotation doesn't change at all. You still spam the shit out of HR, it's just with a haste build you're doing it faster and using mana faster as well whereas with a mastery build you're at least stacking stronger shields with your spam, making it more mana efficient.

[Bijin]

Haste is higher hps. Mastery has the benefit of increasing effective health / sniping. It depends what you're going for.

Hi i have a question, with a disc priest and shammy which built is better, Mastery or Haste...

in 10 man...

[Kretan]

Well it depends on overheal percentages. Right now the overheal is irrelevant. It's all about rolling mastery. With that mechanic gone the overheal component becomes much more relevant. Arguably in 10 man the most effective way of rolling mastery is LoD now. If you're rolling mastery with LoD then you don't have HP for EF.

This is a very good point. I am finding that while EF may have the highest HPS, it will situationally be awful because the HP generation being spent in to the HoTs is going to be a total waste of a resource. Especially like my situation where my cohealer is a disc priest, my EF HoT already has an incredible overheal.

I will be trying all three specs when the numbers are done and it is live, but I can see SS and SH having better use in 10 mans due to using LoD to keep shields rolling on everybody. Also, I feel like SH is going to have a niche in bursty reaction healing. On the other hand, I could see SS having a niche in sustained even keeled dmg intake. I am simply having a hard time coming up with a niche for eternal flame blanketing now that the HoT does not interact with the mastery.

The one argument I can come up with for SH is its adaptability within the talent's context. Instead of HR with 1 target, beacon swapping for Divine Light may be a viable option to consider. This leads to a much larger mastery shield on a target on top of still benefitting from holy power generation and SH itself. If LoD is your mastery shield builder/maintainer, then the "holy radiance" portion of the rotation could (should) be swapped to Beacon Swap + Divine Light for single target as well as maybe two target Holy Radiance (guessing there). While keeping shields up on everybody is great in an ideal situation, redirecting that mastery with Divine Light isntead of Holy Radiance should be considered

Of course this means jack for 25s. For 10s however, this strategy should absolutely be explored.

[Deleted]

Take a look at the HPM column, and compare spirit/mastery and spirit/haste. Could you do a comparison as to how the extra spirit you need for that extra regen influences the HPS?

[Kretan]

Another point to consider is with the SH mana nerf on the casted spell, would it be wise in a single Holy Radiance target situation to swap it to Flash of Light + the glyph? I am not sure if it would be worth it or not but I am bringing up the idea at least.

[xiloclipse]

Remember too that our mana now scales with haste.

What did you mean by this?

[Pasture]

What did you mean by this?

The cooldown of HS is now affected by haste. We cast HS on cooldown so the more haste we have the more we will cast HS. They recently halved the mana cost of HS making it incredibly mana efficient. The more haste you have the higher percentage of time you will spend casting this very mana efficient spell. Imagine now we spend 17% of our time casting HS. With haste stacking that might be more like 25% of our time.

It's not like you can stack haste for mana regen, but one main argument against haste is that it is mana intensive. The cooldown on HS being reduced offsets this to some extent.

[Jackielope]

What did you mean by this?

If he's talking about the Illumination glyph, the scaling on that is abysmal. Take a look at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...XNzkxMUE#gid=0 and then copy it if you want to play around with the glyph numbers.

I'm not entirely sure what else he could be talking about if it's with regards to higher mana returns from higher haste. If it's more to do with being able to spend more mana with more haste, that's always been a given for casters.

Maybe it's to do with getting cheaper HoPo (cheaper than constantly doing HR, FoL, or DL) more often with higher haste? An SH build with a lot of haste does get more HoPo since HS and Judgment are both reduced by haste and J grants HoPo with SH. Come to think of it, using SH to lower the cost of DL, FoL, or HR is basically mana neutral with J at 12%, but it grants quicker HoPo as well.

Edit: Ah, it's just the lowered mana cost on HS. Yeah, it is nice, but it's not a huge thing really.

Getting HS to be 1/4 of your casting time isn't going to be possible, unless you're using SW perhaps. Or if you're stacking haste past 50% on gear (which is 21250 rating just from gear). Its CD is only reduced by melee haste effects, but the GCD is still affected by spell haste, which we'll have quite a bit more of. 1/6 to maybe 1/5, sure.

[PosPosPos]

Except whether you stack haste or mastery, the rotation doesn't change at all. You still spam the shit out of HR, it's just with a haste build you're doing it faster and using mana faster as well whereas with a mastery build you're at least stacking stronger shields with your spam, making it more mana efficient.

This is going to be next to impossible, if not impossible, if HR remains capped at 6 targets to "prevent input lag".

Well it depends on overheal percentages. Right now the overheal is irrelevant. It's all about rolling mastery. With that mechanic gone the overheal component becomes much more relevant. Arguably in 10 man the most effective way of rolling mastery is LoD now. If you're rolling mastery with LoD then you don't have HP for EF.

You are honestly not going to get anywhere trying to roll mastery shields with LoD. Yes, this is even in 10 man.

If you are trying to refresh someone's IH shields(with LoD), that person is generally at full health. So pray tell how are you going to get LoD to target him? Run haphazardly to one side of the map to force LoD to target him as one of the 6 possible targets?

With 5.3 EF nobody cares if someone is at full health because EF is a manual target skill. Not a smart cast like LoD.

Good luck trying to make shield refreshing work with LoD.

Might be the "best" way to put up shields in general, but given what you lose by doing it, it's really not worth it. Better to transition to Druid-esque gameplay and focus on HoTs, 50% overheal EF = 0% overheal LoD afterall.

[dragconus]

You are honestly not going to get anywhere trying to roll mastery shields with LoD. Yes, this is even in 10 man.

If you are trying to refresh someone's IH shields(with LoD), that person is generally at full health. So pray tell how are you going to get LoD to target him? Run haphazardly to one side of the map to force LoD to target him as one of the 6 possible targets?

With 5.3 EF nobody cares if someone is at full health because EF is a manual target skill. Not a smart cast like LoD.

Good luck trying to make shield refreshing work with LoD.

Might be the "best" way to put up shields in general, but given what you lose by doing it, it's really not worth it. Better to transition to Druid-esque gameplay and focus on HoTs, 50% overheal EF = 0% overheal LoD after all.

I didn't really need to quote this but it seemed right since we are talking mastery. With the changes none of it really matters anymore . If you want to shield use SS otherwise quit trying you'll never get it done . EF is the best way to get legendary cloak procs. Other wise also pretty useless. The idea of the "hot" actually being more then just something to keep on tanks and yourself for better beacon heals is no longer idea. The hot procing cloak is. In general no matter which way you play now unless you take SS your heal is going to be an over heal. Whether you control who it over heals or not is irrelevant.

Now 25 man if a different case . Because there's too much ground for our basic spells to cover .EF and praying that it does some good before the hot wears off is our only chance.

I really don't see SH ever being a good choice. Yeah sure it seams fun and all and I love being stuck to a strict rotation like any other moron. But do look at our tools that we do have and realize in that rotation it would be impossible to utilize them all and make SH worth while . Hands of Freedom ,Sacrifice, and Salvation all have very situational but strong ability's that is useful in raid as well as bubbles and other cd's that cost gcds and icds that would hurt that rotation badly . Unless of coarse your a baddie and just tunnel heal. I know some priest like that...

[Floopa]

Depends on the fight with Paladin vs Druid. Some fights druids destroy.

This is true. However Paladins are in a really good spot in 5.4. They're definitely competing with Resto Shaman on 1 or 2 fights for that top spot.

[Keiyra]

This is going to be next to impossible, if not impossible, if HR remains capped at 6 targets to "prevent input lag".
You are honestly not going to get anywhere trying to roll mastery shields with LoD. Yes, this is even in 10 man.

I disagree, In 10 man: between HR hitting up to 60% of the raid, LoD hitting up to 60% of the raid, Prism up to 50% of the raid, or LH up to 60% of the raid, judicious use of Holy shock, and Daybreak hitting up to 100% of the raid, it really shouldn't be that hard to refresh unused shields before they expire.

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.

25's is a whole other beast of course.

[Pasture]

I disagree, In 10 man: between HR hitting up to 60% of the raid, LoD hitting up to 60% of the raid, Prism up to 50% of the raid, or LH up to 60% of the raid, judicious use of Holy shock, and Daybreak hitting up to 100% of the raid, it really shouldn't be that hard to refresh unused shields before they expire.

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.

On a stacked fight.

HR, Daybreak, Prism and LH aren't going to serve well on the many spread encounters. For those you rely on LoD.

[Keiyra]

On a stacked fight.

HR, Daybreak, Prism and LH aren't going to serve well on the many spread encounters. For those you rely on LoD.

Granted, and I agree LoD will be the primary tool when spread of applying and maintaining IH, but unless you are only hitting 1 person per cast with your HR or daybreak on a spread fight, you should still manage to refresh shields on a sizable percentage of the raid.

Its not that hard in a 10 man to still tag 2-4 people per HR even in a spread fight, and if you are properly selecting targets (melee then ranged etc), with HR HR HS you are looking at least 50% of the raid or more with IH coverage. UI's/ADDons with cluster detection can help as well.

I was simply addressing the hyperbole of the earlier posts that made it sound like you could never get IH up in 10 man cause of the aoe changes. While harder to maintain on everyone in a 10, it wasn't as bad as it was being sold. just my 2cp.

[paladative]

Am I too old fashioned to be so much ashamed by overhealing?

[Freia]

Am I too old fashioned to be so much ashamed by overhealing?

Yes. Especially on live.

[xiloclipse]

I didn't really need to quote this but it seemed right since we are talking mastery. With the changes none of it really matters anymore . If you want to shield use SS otherwise quit trying you'll never get it done . EF is the best way to get legendary cloak procs. Other wise also pretty useless. The idea of the "hot" actually being more then just something to keep on tanks and yourself for better beacon heals is no longer idea. The hot procing cloak is. In general no matter which way you play now unless you take SS your heal is going to be an over heal. Whether you control who it over heals or not is irrelevant.

Now 25 man if a different case . Because there's too much ground for our basic spells to cover .EF and praying that it does some good before the hot wears off is our only chance.

Here is a question about EF and cloak procs, does EF have the same chance to proc the cloak regardless of holy power? If so, does it add enough incentive to make single HP EF's worthwhile?

[dragconus]

Here is a question about EF and cloak procs, does EF have the same chance to proc the cloak regardless of holy power? If so, does it add enough incentive to make single HP EF's worthwhile?

I'm not positive as I don't get to test the PTR ..but from what I gathered " and could be wrong" from this thread in earlier post is that the actual hot ticks proc the cloak heal because it over heals so much. I'd say the actual HP spent to proc it prob won't be a factor however the amount of heal stored from the cloak proc would be different. Again not 100% sure on that.

Edit: did they change the proc rate on the cloak so that this style isn't sufficient anymore ? I may have missed a change / unsure .

[PosPosPos]

I disagree, In 10 man: between HR hitting up to 60% of the raid, LoD hitting up to 60% of the raid, Prism up to 50% of the raid, or LH up to 60% of the raid, judicious use of Holy shock, and Daybreak hitting up to 100% of the raid, it really shouldn't be that hard to refresh unused shields before they expire.

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.

25's is a whole other beast of course.

Sure, if the raid is holding hands for Radiance and Daybreak to do their job. Too bad for the majority of fights even in ToT, much more so for SoO, people are going to be spread apart. Still doesn't solve LoD hitting the targets you want to hit, and still doesn't change the fact you are essentially wasting 21.6k mana just to refresh IH. Worth it? No. And prism is 20 seconds cd. So if it's down what exactly do you want to do? Oh right, hit an extremely expensive spell just to...refresh IH shields. The very epitome of inefficiency.

Don't make a molehill out of a mountain.

Hint: If it doesn't work in 5.3, it's not going to suddenly work in 5.4 either. Just pointing out.