Item Squish Confirmed

[Chult]

[QUOTE=Awe;21933282 Why does it bother some people that instead of 100,000 dps they will do 1000 dps? Why does it matter if boss HP also goes down from 100,000,000 to 1,000,000?[/QUOTE]

Why not leave it be and spend time on things which actually matter, such as game content?

Throw a k on the end, call it a day, and spend time on something else.

Get a grip.

http://www.anxietymatters.com/sympto...thmophobia.htm

[phenom568]

Why not leave it be and spend time on things which actually matter, such as game content?

Throw a k on the end, call it a day, and spend time on something else.

Get a grip.

http://www.anxietymatters.com/sympto...thmophobia.htm

You know that might be the problem with wows current population. The game has to get easier so people don't have to look up numbers because most of them suffer from that phobia. Makes sense.

[Aquamonkey]

LFR, transmog (best feature in a long time but it wasn't solving a problem), item upgrades, thunderforged items, crossrealm )another example of something that created more problems than it solved), cataclysm world changes, I'm sure if I wasn't tired and almost brain dead from writing a paper earlier today I could come up with more "features" that solved nonexistent problems.

Seriously?

LFR - Opened up their most long-lasting form of content to a larger pool of players. Keeps them in the gear grind for longer than 5-mans can sustain. Allows more people to experience major plot points in the story.

Transmog - Solves the problem of people wanting to customize their look and be unique. Gets people into old content and staying subbed while running that RNG grind.

Item Upgrades - Better solution than incremental raid nerfs/player buffs to help people get past progression walls. Gives people something to spend their VP on.

Thunderforged - More RNG to keep people subbed while on the gear grind. Also to entice people into doing 25-man raids with higher thunderforged droprate.

Crossrealm - Makes the game feel more like an MMO. Allows people to play with their friends on different servers. Paved the way for Virtual Realms.

Cata revamp - Fixed a lot of the crappy leveling zones. Improved the narrative of the game while leveling.

[aeonfluxx]

why? by that logic 1 is easier to deal with than 1000 so lets knock it all the way back to single digits

this is true

[jbombard]

LFR, transmog (best feature in a long time but it wasn't solving a problem), item upgrades, thunderforged items, crossrealm )another example of something that created more problems than it solved), cataclysm world changes, I'm sure if I wasn't tired and almost brain dead from writing a paper earlier today I could come up with more "features" that solved nonexistent problems.

But I'm curious, what problems does the item squish solve, beyond the "my brain can't handle large numbers" one

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The very very distant future, and that's assuming technology doesn't change in that time, which it will thus making it even further into the future.

Agreed. 5-10 years at least, likely more.

[Aquamonkey]

Why not leave it be and spend time on things which actually matter, such as game content?

Throw a k on the end, call it a day, and spend time on something else.

Get a grip.

http://www.anxietymatters.com/sympto...thmophobia.htm

Except game content is made by a completely different team.

[jbombard]

it would be stupid to quit playing over numbers getting smaller and easier to deal with, and i agree about people worried that solo'ing old content will still be possible, and if it isnt would it kill you to group up in a social game......i mean that would ruin the thing wouldnt it, and the squish isnt confirmed or denied.....just a good idea at this point.....one well past due

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lets just be honest 1000 is easier to deal with than 1,000,000

That is why simply formatting it as 1000k is a very easy to implement and doesn't break anything in the process.

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Except game content is made by a completely different team.

Scripting touches all parts of the game. If those guys get bottlenecked it affects all parts of the game.

[aeonfluxx]

curious, why would you be for bigger numbers, they bigger the numbers get the more it shows flaws in a rotation, if you lose 10 dps because you used spell X when you should have used spell Y its easier to handel than the same model showing you lost 10k dps, and before i get flamed for that one even in BC you could see the difference between a good player and a great player, its just the good player didnt cripple the raid team

[Sole-Warrior]

"mmo-champion says item squish soon confirmed. Please do not regress my character. I worked hard to get him to where he is.
I didn't confirm it. Still we think there are a lot of good reasons to get numbers down to more parsable levels. (Source)
100m, 100k, and 100 are all equally 'parsable'. It's all about formatting."

[Aquamonkey]

Scripting touches all parts of the game. If those guys get bottlenecked it affects all parts of the game.

The bottleneck is art, not balance.

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The very very distant future, and that's assuming technology doesn't change in that time, which it will thus making it even further into the future.

That must be why they kept talking about 6.0 or 7.0 as when they would do it. "We’re trying the solution with commas, and K’s, and M’s, and to be honest, it helps a lot, and our hope is, by 6.0 or 7.0, players are demanding the item squish, and by then it’s not controversial at all. It’s like a celebration when we finally do it."

[jbombard]

The bottleneck is art, not balance.

And you know this because? Also a lot of the "art" in the game have scripts attached to it. Unless you want to have a new mob that doesn't have any AI and just sits there. Even if the amount of work required to get some scripts for a new mob or area are minimal if you don't have available resources to do it because the script guys are fixing stuff they broke it doesn't really matter, something has to wait and generally new content takes a back seat to bug fixing.

[Aquamonkey]

And you know this because? Also a lot of the "art" in the game have scripts attached to it. Unless you want to have a new mob that doesn't have any AI and just sits there. Even if the amount of work required to get some scripts for a new mob or area are minimal if you don't have available resources to do it because the script guys are fixing stuff they broke it doesn't really matter, something has to wait and generally new content takes a back seat to bug fixing.

What new content would you be willing to give up so that artists could focus on Silvermoon? (Source)

A patch used to include dungeons and raids, not a patch is just balance and dailies.
Dragon Soul came with few new boss models and virtually no new architecture because of the 3 dungeons included in that patch. (Source)

This makes me believe that dungeons take a lot more effort than many peeps realize. oO Loved the Eternity one.
The architecture (the physical dungeon) takes a very long time. The encounters take time too, but usually less. You can mitigate that by doing outdoor dungeons, but it's easy to overdo those. (Source)

Why can't the scenario team work on dungeons instead? Can't stand scenarios as healer; even in guild as disc.
Good dungeons require a lot of art. (Source)

Why does it take so much more time to design a dungeon than a scenario?
Art is the big one, but the boss mechanics are also more complex and we have to make sure the loot and lock outs work correctly. (Source)

"Systems design specifically is everything that is not level, story, quest or encounter design. My team handles everything from classes to mechanics to items to trade skills to achievements to UI design, and that includes the game balance."

[phenom568]

curious, why would you be for bigger numbers, they bigger the numbers get the more it shows flaws in a rotation, if you lose 10 dps because you used spell X when you should have used spell Y its easier to handel than the same model showing you lost 10k dps, and before i get flamed for that one even in BC you could see the difference between a good player and a great player, its just the good player didnt cripple the raid team

I'm confused, you seem to be saying smaller numbers hide poor play better than large numbers and then later say that's a good thing? Seem like you are making a pro large number statement.

Me personally I couldn't care less about how large or small numbers are. I do enjoy soloing stuff not because I'm told I can solo it but because of the gear I acquired allows me too. Honestly I see no other reason to acquire gear in raids if not to use it to overpower stuff you have already killed. Its also an independence thing.

But the bigger issue is shrinking the numbers doesn't solve a problem and creates another problem and probably a slew of other unseen ones.

[jbombard]

What new content would you be willing to give up so that artists could focus on Silvermoon? (Source)

A patch used to include dungeons and raids, not a patch is just balance and dailies.
Dragon Soul came with few new boss models and virtually no new architecture because of the 3 dungeons included in that patch. (Source)

This makes me believe that dungeons take a lot more effort than many peeps realize. oO Loved the Eternity one.
The architecture (the physical dungeon) takes a very long time. The encounters take time too, but usually less. You can mitigate that by doing outdoor dungeons, but it's easy to overdo those. (Source)

Why can't the scenario team work on dungeons instead? Can't stand scenarios as healer; even in guild as disc.
Good dungeons require a lot of art. (Source)

Why does it take so much more time to design a dungeon than a scenario?
Art is the big one, but the boss mechanics are also more complex and we have to make sure the loot and lock outs work correctly. (Source)

You do realize that the post you linked doesn't mention resource bottlenecks. Just simply what requires a lot of works, and boss mechanics are scripted by the way. Bottlenecks occur not because there is simply a lot of work, there are a lot of factors like how many people you have on each team, and how skilled those people are. Generally you don't want resources to bottleneck but you also don't want to have many resources not being used, so it is a pretty tight balance. When you have a sudden influx of work for a specific department that is unforeseen it is not unlikely they would get backed up.

[phenom568]

stuff

Say it takes one person to do the shrink. I would rather that one person be doing something else, like juggling to entertain the staff, than working on something that solves no problems.

[Aquamonkey]

You do realize that the post you linked doesn't mention resource bottlenecks. Just simply what requires a lot of works, and boss mechanics are scripted by the way. Bottlenecks occur not because there is simply a lot of work, there are a lot of factors like how many people you have on each team, and how skilled those people are. Generally you don't want resources to bottleneck but you also don't want to have many resources not being used, so it is a pretty tight balance. When you have a sudden influx of work for a specific department that is unforeseen it is not unlikely they would get backed up.

"The architecture (the physical dungeon) takes a very long time. The encounters take time too, but usually less."

"What new content would you be willing to give up so that artists could focus on Silvermoon?" Art is their limiting factor when it comes to making new content. How is that different than a bottleneck?

...that we need to choose what content for the limited artists to focus on? There is not enough resources? Wow!
Your math doesn't exactly work there, but regardless, the issue is not being able to find enough good artists quickly enough. (Source)

[aeonfluxx]

I'm confused, you seem to be saying smaller numbers hide poor play better than large numbers and then later say that's a good thing? Seem like you are making a pro large number statement.

Me personally I couldn't care less about how large or small numbers are. I do enjoy soloing stuff not because I'm told I can solo it but because of the gear I acquired allows me too. Honestly I see no other reason to acquire gear in raids if not to use it to overpower stuff you have already killed. Its also an independence thing.

But the bigger issue is shrinking the numbers doesn't solve a problem and creates another problem and probably a slew of other unseen ones.

no, its very pro smaller numbers, and problems created by a squish should have been visable when we had content that match the proposed numbers i.e. if its 1k dps, we should have seen anyproblem that could arise in BC or the 3 to 4k area we would have seen in LK so on and soforth

[Aquamonkey]

Say it takes one person to do the shrink. I would rather that one person be doing something else, like juggling to entertain the staff, than working on something that solves no problems.

"Still we think there are a lot of good reasons to get numbers down to more parsable levels."

[jbombard]

"The architecture (the physical dungeon) takes a very long time. The encounters take time too, but usually less."

"What new content would you be willing to give up so that artists could focus on Silvermoon?" Art is their limiting factor when it comes to making new content. How is that different than a bottleneck?

Because if there is a lot of work you usually have a bigger team to compensate. There response was in the context of art since the question was in the context of art, if you create an abnormal amount of work for any specific section it has a potential to bottleneck. Since they are talking about adding a bunch of art, then art becomes the bottleneck in that specific scenario it doesn't mean that art is always the bottleneck. A bottleneck is when any particular department has to take on more work than anticipated/more than the resources can handle and other sections need those results to continue to work or to release. Teams are most certainly not the same size and 1 man hour of art likely doesn't require 1 man hour of scripting, it might only need 1/10 that or something, the teams are sized in order to make things flow as smoothly as possible.

[phenom568]

"Still we think there are a lot of good reasons to get numbers down to more parsable levels."

And they are?